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One CA Podcast is here to inspire anyone interested in traveling to work with a partner nation’s people and leadership to forward U.S. foreign policy. We bring in current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences and give recommendations for working the ”last three feet” of foreign relations. The show is sponsored by the Civil Affairs Association.
Episodes
Tuesday Nov 05, 2024
Tuesday Nov 05, 2024
Welcome. Today, we bring Dr. Stanislava Mladenova to discuss the NATO CIMIC Foresight Conference.
Book: Rambo Meets the Red Cross. Found at: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781538187722/When-Rambo-Meets-the-Red-Cross-Civil-Military-Engagement-in-Fragile-States
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
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Special thanks to Ambience Lord for the sample of OKTOBERFEST Music
Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/Kb_lr32vcrk?si=_V4vM_4BBv2zNxY2
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Transcript
00:00:01 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Dr. Stanislava Mildanova, author of When Rambo Meets the Red Cross. We met at the NATO Strategic Foresight Conference in The Hague this October. In this session, we reflect on our experiences at the conference and discuss some ideas for the future of civil -military relations. So let's get started.
00:00:56 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
We tend to very constantly think about civil as a human -to -human function on the ground or, you know, potentially function of the Navy when it pulls into port. And whenever I try to explain this to a civilian and what it means, I have to kind of think logistically through every function that the military could perform, which is any function potentially. And whether they join well, whether a domain joins well with another domain, or whether that domain needs to be able to understand what is in the civilian environment that it needs to better integrate with, that's where I think things can get a bit wonky, as you said. Sure. Yeah, I think at the moment, business is booming in Europe, for obvious reasons.
00:01:42 JACK GAINES
Very true. What did you think of the conference? It started off with... some panels, and then we went into some work groups, and then another panel, and then we had some social hours in between. Yeah,
00:01:56 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
I think I found that exactly as I expected to, which is trying to really be creative around the conversation of what the future means. Of course, I was with one of the groups where we looked at how the world could be in 2045 from a cognitive superiority standpoint. You know, ask a soldier to be a social scientist or ask a soldier to be an environmentalist or a techie. And that is by definition something very difficult to do. I mean, ask a civilian person to be a military person, right? And that's kind of the whole idea of putting yourself in the other's shoes. And it really gets at the heart of Sid Milne. So I think that within the constraints of how... creative and innovative, we can be within the three days. But also understanding that the military by default has this culture of, you know, creativity is not the place, right? You execute, you're kind of given orders and you just go about them. I think that I've gone to several of these conferences now with them. And I think that every time it just kicks the can a bit further down the road. And that's good. I don't think we can be too aggressive or innovative or get outside of our comfort zone, certainly whenever you're talking about the military and whenever you're talking about bureaucracies.
00:03:18 JACK GAINES
Right. The listeners should know, and that's that they did a 20 -year projection into the future. And most of the, I would say their military forecasters, projected pretty dour futures. Less freedoms, a lot more conflict, a lot more environmental challenges. Not a lot of peace, love and happiness in the future with those guys. I have to challenge it because I don't fully disagree, but I don't fully agree as well. I think there had some logic gaps because military forecasters, they look at risk and what future risk looks like.
00:03:54 JACK GAINES
look at risk and what future risk looks like. So if you're going to look at a military forecast, it's going to look like risk problems because that's what they're looking at. If you look at some of the other forecasters that are not risk -focused, you'll see there's some really positive things coming up as well. I just didn't think it was as balanced as it should have been.
00:04:15 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Well, this is where I think trying to get a bit more in their community is very important. So let me give you a bit of the perspective of a development person. Let's say you're a development person that's working on climate.
00:04:22 JACK GAINES
let me give
00:04:22 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
a bit of the perspective of a development person. Let's say you're a development person that's working on climate. And we talk about all kinds of things get thrown around. on the climate, the seas are rising and everything's getting hot and you're going to have conflict and so on. And that's correct. And at the same time, when you're throwing the resilience conversation, it'll probably be a whole other podcast series. But essentially, you do have a lot of innovative strategies on how to leverage. the opportunity that presents itself. So are you looking at new types of horticulture? Are you looking at more exploratory ways to allow for livelihoods? Are you necessarily looking at, the assumption is always like, oh, people are going to move away from very hot areas where they can't grow food and go somewhere else and go on a huge influx. But we don't actually know that it's very hard for humans to just pick up and go elsewhere. likely they're going to try to adapt. And adaptation is part of being resilient. You don't have the shock absorbency to deal with something. So you need to come up with new ways to react to your current environment. And I think that there's also an assumption somehow that conflict will also cause people to leave. And that's also not necessarily a straightforward answer because people may be more willing to live in a place with terrible land. And more Cossack simply because they can provide for their livelihood and they don't want to leave their land and their families. So I think the more we can open up the aperture to think adaptation as opposed to shock, we're probably dealing with a more realistic scenario. And there are people outside of the military profession. Think about this. And their DNA is all about long term. How do you grow? In 30 years, how do you provide livelihoods? How do you lift people out of poverty by the end of the decade, by the end of the century?
00:06:25 JACK GAINES
Right. Matter of fact, I got to bring Gus Ferreira and Jamie Critelli back on because they are long -term economic agriculturalists. Another thing that struck me about the conference was the work groups. Did you attend any of the work groups or did you just present?
00:06:42 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
I actually facilitated one of the work groups. Really fascinating. You go and you facilitate, but you're also learning. And our groups were really very well mixed. We had someone from the police that from you, Paul, and we had also a couple of colleagues from the NGO communities. But again, I found that I think our difficulty was trying to really look to the future. We thought about the future in the construct of what we know about the presence.
00:07:14 JACK GAINES
Which is how most people project the future is what we know now and just kind of extend it out and see how things have changed.
00:07:21 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Exactly. It's really hard to know, right? So we were kind of thinking like, well, what will NATO look like? And as some of us, is there a guarantee that there will be a NATO or there will be an EU? Which actually, if I can take us back to your question, I think it ties very neatly into really not underestimating how difficult multilateralism actually is.
00:07:44 JACK GAINES
Oh, yeah.
00:07:45 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
It's very hard politically, extremely hard operationally. And we now have 32 nations. I was with NATO, young staffer, when it was only 28, I believe. No, it was actually 26 when I joined. And it was a really interesting, up -and -close experience to see what it means to get everyone to agree and then to operationalize what a guidance means. Try to get 32 different countries whose military do things different ways. Yes, to join NATO, you need to be part of the force structure. There's a common denominator under which everyone needs to be able to operate. But these are still sovereign nations and sovereign militaries and culturally, mechanically, organizationally, technically, budgetarily, whichever way you want to spin it. There's very much a difference. So you will appreciate this. There's always kind of a bit of, you know, CA and SF and, you know, CA and something else. Well, take a small country's military where the soldier has to be all things, where there is no separation between the lethal and the diplomatic in development. And then you're just dealing with a very different mindset and a ballgame in terms of what and who you can deploy.
00:09:05 JACK GAINES
True. That reminds me of Switzerland. Even though they're not a NATO member, they're soldiers. They have to do everything. They have to know how to do disaster response. They have to know how to do offensive operations. And they have to have technical skills. It's a lot, but be diverse and be successful at it. And that's another part of it is Europe having so many wealthy countries that have good education and training. Get really quality people. I mean, and to be soldiers, the Simic teams that I met. Those people were brilliant, really capable. So it was impressive to talk with them and to work with them on different subjects. One thing that caught me, though, it seemed like a lot of people were hung up on Article 4 and 5. And they didn't really want to talk anything pre -Article 4 or 5, any kind of lead -ups, any kind of what I call zero -based planning, because that's not where the business is. They were like... Once the rockets hit and we go to Article 4 or 5, that's when we do our job. And so I found a challenge there, and it's one that I pitched at NATO, and that is to start a working group to discuss CIMIC in competition. Domestic CIMIC, where you're doing crisis response in a nation, even if it's your nation or if you're going over to a nation to support them, as well as... expeditionary civic, where you're deployed overseas or in a hostile zone, what kind of efforts can you do before the fight begins?
00:10:44 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone says, oh, we need to be talking to each other before the crisis happens, so before Article 5. We say this, and yet it's very, very... deliberate, thoughtful, long -term, and kind of taxing to think about a worst -case scenario and essentially be able to think through every possible outcome. This is why I really enjoyed the work and the exercise that we had. As you know, I've been focusing a lot on this work and trying to mobilize the conversation as well in Washington for quite some time around research around the book. What actually very pleasantly surprised me from the conference is that signal is booming in Europe. The conversation is there, I think, for obvious reasons because of what's happening in the East. But again, it's booming because there's literally a crisis and there are boots on the ground. And I always wonder why we've not had the same type of energy and urgency. here in the US. And of course, we have it. We have it in the context of great power competition. Here it's China. In Europe, it's Russia. So you really have to bow to the moment and what people are talking about and thinking about. But it's exactly as you said, we need to be having these conversations in advance. And it's got so much other stuff to deal with. Bigger fish to fry. We'll feed people their signal vegetables when the moment comes. And I think this conversation around fragility This conversation about donor funding now increasingly going to fragile states. If we can focus on prevention, we can certainly focus the conversation more deliberately to start getting these signs to speak each other's love language. If we need to have the conversation around capacity and absorbency on the health or education side, we certainly can have the same conversation on the security side. The security relationship oftentimes is a political relationship. It's not necessarily focused around the fascism. But if you take up a multilateral organization such as the World Bank, they're now starting to operate in programming spaces that were completely off limits just 15, 20 years ago. So we have an impetus and we have plenty of terrain to see how some of this works by deliberately coming to the team.
00:13:21 JACK GAINES
When people are talking about crisis, they mostly are focusing on Ukraine. The one thing that I brought up was that Georgia is just as much a crisis as Ukraine because government is being toppled. It's just not with war. It's by political subversion. And that's where SIMIC can help a country if they were involved with Georgia in working with civil security, spotting risk, coordinating better responses so that they could work with the military on countering things like cyber incursions. or financial encouragements, while then showing the public that the military is there as part of the full -of -nation policy, it would have slowed down or even reversed the Russian attempts to subvert that government and bring in a bunch of politicians that are now rewriting all the laws in Georgia, a pro -Russian stance. And that's my challenge, is that if we lose in competition, there's not going to be a war. There won't be a need for a war. Everyone's equipment's going to be obsolete, because The governments will have changed, the financial systems have changed, and there's no one to fight because it's your own country that's been flipped by subversion.
00:14:32 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Having grown up in Eastern Europe as a young person and coming here, being in the West for the majority of my life, there's a certain vulnerability.
00:14:43 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Those countries that are the buffer between East and West have always been subjected and vulnerable to psychological evaporation, convincing people. And you and I talked about this in The Hague. You don't have to necessarily prove that what you're saying is true. All you have to do is just plant a bit of doubt and slow down decision -making. What is what's going to throw everything off? And now people have to have just a tiny bit of doubt whether what is being presented to them is what the information is or what the reality is.
00:15:18 JACK GAINES
But I think that younger generations are actually getting better at spotting The BS. In Eastern Bloc countries, they've always challenged what they heard. There was always the official word and then the unofficial word. And in countries like the Middle East, where you always had radical groups promoting stuff, as well as the government and civil groups telling you things, they've learned how to decipher chaff from the real stuff. In the U .S., I'm seeing the younger generations also picking that up because of the deluge of misinformation, disinformation and meaningless communication. And so I think that people are growing better at deciphering it.
00:16:03 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
This is exactly right. And remember, the more exposure there is, I think, the more kind of variety there is of people having to select whether something is real or not, be it a piece of news or be it. Just an image or be it AI allows someone to look straight into the camera and not read off screen because, you know, so many people get on screen these days and have to give a presentation.
00:16:30 JACK GAINES
Yeah, even me.
00:16:30 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
even me. Yeah, right. I mean, all of us, right? But the point is that almost on a weekly basis, something new comes out. Right. And the speed at which all of this is occurring. can sometimes outpace our ability to just kind of understand what the newest thing is, which is where I rely on my younger colleagues who are always much more up to par in things than I.
00:16:52 JACK GAINES
Sure. So do you have any takeaways from either the presentations in the end or some of the social events? Did you have any kernels that you'd like to share, something that struck you?
00:17:03 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
What really struck me was there's just a disconnection for what the military does. And I would probably... push back and say, is this a PR issue? Is it a branding? Is it a marketing issue? I mean, in the US, of course, we have a very different relationship.
00:17:20 JACK GAINES
Support our troops, yeah.
00:17:22 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Yeah, support our troops, people coming, the high school. I don't know to what an extent that exists among allies. And I mean, we know that everyone is having a hard time with recruitment numbers. That is more of a commitment to probably identity.
00:17:37 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
to probably identity. kind of believing in the cause and ideology of your government. And it reinforces the social contract in a way that being completely removed from it may not.
00:17:52 JACK GAINES
One thing that I noticed in Poland was that civil affairs teams were going out with Polish military and they were parking their vehicles in the market centers. And that way the public could walk up, look at the vehicles, talk to them, photos. They'd let the kids wear the hats or sit on the machines and get photos. And I thought that was a really good way to build comfort between the population and the military so that they felt comfortable with the U .S. being there with the Polish military. And that might be something that the other militaries might have to do. Getting more integrated with civil society might help the militaries to build back that good perspective. But also to do outreach, similar to what was going on in Poland. So I did hear that from... folks in conversation that they don't have a strong relationship with the public. There's a little bit of distrust in some countries. That's a PR thing. It needs to get handled. It needs to get jumped on quickly because the more there's propaganda targeting you, it is harder to build that relationship. The only time that you can build it at that point is if there's a crisis or a disaster and the military comes in and helps the population. That shifts it. which is also very important, is that the military be involved in crisis management so that they can show the humanity of the military in supporting its domestic population.
00:19:16 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
That's right. And I think for us who are heavily plugged into the civilian side, we need to serve as the bridge between a civilian and a soldier, the life of a soldier, which ultimately that career comes to an end for most people. They go on to do something in a civilian capacity. And the things that the military can teach you between medical training, engineering, infrastructure, you pick a profession, there's some part of the military that deals with that profession.
00:19:49 JACK GAINES
All the way up to astronauts.
00:19:50 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Exactly. I don't think I've ever come across an astronaut. Not that I come across so many astronauts, but I do have a big social circle. Hey. We need to tackle space. We need everybody, right? Right. But, you know, almost every one of them comes with a military background. If you talk to Médecins Sans Frontières, the one organization that will absolutely stay away from any involvement in the military because they stay neutral to the bombing operations, they will tell you some of the most impressive trauma care or medical response by military medics. One person explained it to me, said it's just absolutely fascinating to watch these guys almost like an orchestra coming together and everything is down to the T, being able to suture someone so quickly. And yeah, I get goosebumps just thinking about it because I spend so much of my time trying to explain to each side that they need each other's skills, not always, but in some capacity. So very solid skills for very important. Function is in everyday life for communities. So I always tell people, learn leadership skills, learn the training, learn the discipline, and just go out and climb into the civilian world. And I think the military needs, I think this gunslinger mentality that has left sort of a bad taste for people from the wars. Many saying that, yeah, I don't want to go in and do what the military does. And then for us to say, well, actually, there's so much more that the military does in here all the way. And this is where Koning needs to step in and really connect with the communities.
00:21:33 JACK GAINES
So what are you looking to going forward?
00:21:35 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
So I think that one of the things that would be really fascinating to see among allies is very difficult to do, but a little bit more around the wargaming and experimentation realm and trying to use existing methodologies. in the community, in the academic and practitioner community, to think about experimenting with some of these mechanisms and think about new wargaming tools and what does the future look like. So take everything that we discussed in the conference and now try to come up with the know -how and see if it changes our modus operandi. As you know, I always argue that CivMill is more of a way of being than it's an actual capability or a capacity or organization. It's really more about sort of those combination of the soft skills, the strategy and approach of the actors involved. Having more research and development around that would be great to help us think to the future.
00:22:39 JACK GAINES
You know, it would be great if they do a war game based on competition. anything leading up to conflict. And when it hits conflict, the war game is over. And so your job is all the way leading up to it to try to win without fighting, either through political means or economic means or through civil engagements or influence or messaging. That would be an interesting war game because then we're really driving to the reality that's going on now.
00:23:11 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
That's right. A low -intensity conflict war game. It wouldn't be a war game. It might be a peace game.
00:23:18 JACK GAINES
Well, it's a war game. It's avoid all -out war by winning or the war happens. Right. Okay, we only have a few more minutes left. What's coming up for you? You're going to be pitching your book when Rambo meets the Red Cross. Do you have any testimonies? Do you have any conferences coming up? What's going on with you?
00:23:37 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
Oh, gosh. Well, I will be at the Civil War Association conference. In mid -November, not only will I be there talking about the book, I will have copies of the book ready to sign. So I invite our listeners, if you have a copy of When Ramble with the Red Cross, bring it with you. I will very gladly sign it and with my gratitude for everyone supporting this very small English community. But we'll also have some copies for sale. Okay,
00:24:07 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
well... That's it? I want to say it was really great to meet you in person and thanks so much for your support. I'm very grateful. It's great to have you.
00:24:17 JACK GAINES
to have you. It's a pleasure.
00:24:18 STANISLAVA MLADENOVA
It's a pleasure.
00:24:19 JACK GAINES
Okay, great. Well, we'll talk soon. Absolutely. All right. Awesome.
Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, Email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
Tuesday Oct 29, 2024
Tuesday Oct 29, 2024
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock talks with Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez about how the Marine Corps modernization is shifting Civil Affairs' roles and duties in the force and how those changes impact their work in the Pacific.
MSgt Andrew Gonzalez joined the USMC-CA community in October 2015 as an E7. CA activations of note include OCT 2017 CJTF-OIR, clear and hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, DEC 2021 in support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, VA, a rare opportunity to support a Defense Support of Civil Authorities mission. MSgt Gonzalez was most recently activated in support of JTF-Red Hill, the safe and expedient refueling of the underground fuel storage facility on the island of Oahu. Allowed to meet with the Waianae Kupuna Council to discuss the transition from JTF-Red Hill leadership and mission to the Red Hill – Navy Closure Task Force.
MSgt Gonzalez has supported 1st Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years and continues to drive USA-USMC CA collaborative efforts, civil information management best practice, and USMC - Civil Military Operations training standards in direct response to OSD/INDOPACOM/MARFORPAC/IMEF demand for CA and Civic Action Team support.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special Thanks to "Cool Jazz Hot Bossa" for the sample of Energy Jazz Music Playlist - Jazz Instrumental Upbeat - High Energy Jazz Music Mix. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=_bLf2fdTw6Ba93oh
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Transcript
00:00:04 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:40 BRIAN HANCOCK
Welcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez to discuss United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs, Civil Information Management, and civil harm mitigation and response. Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez joined the United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs community in October 2015 as an E -7. Civil Affairs activations of note include Combined Joint Task Force, Operation Inherent Resolve, Clear and Hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, Support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, Virginia, which was a rare opportunity to support a defense support to civil authorities mission. Master Sergeant Gonzalez has supported First Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years in direct response to the Secretary of Defense, INDO -PACOM, MARFOR -PAC, and IMEF. Boy, that's a lot of acronyms. Top, welcome to the show. Great to link up, Ryan. It's been a while. Far, far too long. The last time we worked together, we were lamenting the state of civil information management in both the Marine Corps and the Army because we saw the potential there to help us achieve strategic objectives that are often tied to the civil population.
00:02:03 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, I can only speak for the Marine Corps. And then, you know, because you were with McTog at the time and then you had a leg inside, I think it was 351st KCOM. So that's what always made the conversation interesting. So you could just step into both worlds and say, this is what I'm learning on the USA, CA side. Conversely, this is what McTog is doing it. And really what it came down to was the commander's perspective.
00:02:25 BRIAN HANCOCK
Absolutely. I am very grateful to the Marine Corps for the opportunity to learn, you know, both from professionals such as yourself, as well as from some of your schools, like the Civil Military Operations Planners course back in Quantica. Amazingly good. I'm really excited to have you here today because you're going to give us a much -needed additional perspective and thought on some of these challenges that we're wrestling with, frankly, all over the world.
00:02:55 ANDREW GONZALEZ
You and I had first connected, and all throughout that time, numbers are shrinking, toker shrinking, and we're like, where's value? And that came into our initial dialogues with civil information management, thinking that, hey, we could probably get some traction with this, but ultimately, it took several years, but then... I call it the great IF Sauron, right? The DOD looked west and said, hey, Indo -PACOM, this is the simple problem. But I just felt like when it came to developing relationships with the host nation, that's a given. We're going to be placed inside the host nation. But what's the commander's perception? And that's where I want to kind of pick up the conversation due to the fact that that has changed. And now it's coming down to IMF landing general saying, what I witnessed in Vallarta 1024. With respect to the civil affairs engagement in theater, I want more of it. I want more cowbell. And that's what we're going to deliver it in Balakatan 25. With the planning that's going on right now after the initial planning conference that I just got back from, I asked for it. And without hesitation, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, G7, responded with, we are going to give you civil affairs teams. So it's just a much more open, much more inclusive, much more inviting environment when it comes to the civil picture.
00:04:08 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's fantastic. In 351, a number of years ago, I was involved in Balakatan. And previously, when I was in the SIOP demand, now military information support and operations, we participated there. And it was not easy, and it was not friendly, and it was not open like that. And it was really just an opportunity to send some of our service members who spoke to Gallic to go on over there. There was some increase in capability of the Philippine Defense Force, but they were still very much struggling against Abu Sayyaf and MNLC and these other terrorist organizations that were operating at the Holo Archipelago. It was just a really rough time. So it's fantastic to hear that years later, fast forward now, and we have a much stronger relationship, a much more effective relationship, a stronger partnership. We're talking about reopening some of our military bases there. We've lost some of those bases years ago, which allows China certainly to say, OK, if you only got one major port where you can do roll on, roll off operations, boy, we know where to set up our ISR and target. Right. So the strength of that relationship and the work that you're doing out there, I think, is really important. I'm glad to hear how it's progressed.
00:05:19 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I have a couple of relationships with 351st KCOM 3Shot. So maybe sometime after the podcast, we'll reconnect and talk through. Some of the collaboration, because it's been a while since I've talked with them. But during the initial planning conference, I reached into USRPAC to say, hey, we would really, really appreciate some USACA flavor. And the response was, what do we need to do? I said, can you put me in touch with 350 first? And it happened that day.
00:05:46 BRIAN HANCOCK
While you reconnect there, make sure our 38 golf program with all of those PhD level experts and everything from medicine to engineering, that is really taking off. 38 golf, got it. Yes, that MOS within the functioning specialty team constructs that we have in the Army is delivering incredible value. For instance, in our region, they recently did the NATO 7 resiliency studies of other areas, which is things we should be working in competition, and food resiliency within Medova and other areas. These things are such quality, they're being published in Military Review. And right now, the iron is hot because they're still trying to figure out... How do you utilize those 38 golfs and functional specialty teams? So make sure as we partner with you in the ground combat element in the core that we're fully utilizing some of those capabilities I think would add a lot of value to those of you who are doing planning on the Mew and doing assessments.
00:06:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, it's very easy to say things like 1CA, okay? It's the people. It's individuals that see and understand that given the tyranny of distance, there's lots of things, right? Like expeditionary. advanced -based operations. And just that there's no possible way that one service couldn't cover all that distance and cover down on all of those requirements. So the bottom line is we have so much to learn from one another. And I am definitely going to discuss that with 351st S3 Shop for sure.
00:07:11 BRIAN HANCOCK
Fantastic. I really encouraged to hear that. And I know 351st will receive that well. Many of our listeners happen to be Army just because there's a little bit more civil affairs in the Army. The Marine Corps is a little bit smaller force. Let's level the table a little bit, help them understand some of the Marine Corps civil affairs structure. For instance, in the Army civil affairs, this is a non -accession branch, certainly for officers it is. But here's the thing, both officers and NCOs, once they get the MOS, can spend their entire careers in civil affairs. And the way the pyramid is built out, there's plenty of room and plenty of slots for promotion. So it's very realistic that you can be awarded. a 38 MOS in the Army, and then that's it. That's what you'll be doing for the next 15 plus years or however long you go until you choose to retire. Now, I understand the Marine Corps, it's not like that. Can you elaborate a little bit on how that process is for Marines?
00:08:11 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, you're 100 % right with respect to officers. Once you get to E -8 and E -9 in the Marine Corps, you suddenly start to see how difficult it is for the O -4 and above. to get to kernel. And it is incredibly competitive. So what's also happening is the 17XX migration. But that came out of not just consolidating MISO and Comstrat and SIOP and civil affairs all under one MOS branch. And some space operations in there too, I recall. It's what's required, right? In order for us to work through any kind of distributed operations, we're going to have to rely on space substantially. Yes. But these changes are happening at the headquarters Marine Corps level where 17XX will now give officers a career path. Nice. In 17XX. And this is where you and I were having conversations about what does that mean for Reserve CA? Are we going to be completely replaced, supplanted, marginalized?
00:09:10 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right.
00:09:10 ANDREW GONZALEZ
And in the end. From 21 to 24, we learned that even though our schoolhouse got completely consumed with consolidating the MISO, the PSYOP, the Comstrat, the CA schools, all in one building, to teaching the entire 17XX curriculum.
00:09:25 BRIAN HANCOCK
In fairness, the Marine Corps has done some massive changes, at least relative to, say, the Army, which turns a little bit slower. Look at their entire divestiture of tanks under Commandant Berger. And the standing up of these Marine littoral regiments. uh brand new formations the very new equipment that they're looking at that's tied into very specific missions the marine corps is innovating across stop gulf pp very quickly it's impressive to see i popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs
00:09:57 ANDREW GONZALEZ
popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs And their concept of civil affairs employment wasn't so much about understanding the civil population. It was really just understanding that they're there. We're going to take this into consideration. But there was no real collaboration, if you will. But what they did was, as they reached out to requisition CA specifically, because they recognized that there was a little bit of a delta there. And they wanted to make sure that civil affairs had a seat at the planning table when it came to MLR and specifically overall combat team operations.
00:10:36 BRIAN HANCOCK
Good.
00:10:36 ANDREW GONZALEZ
It's a part of their training tasks. And that's the commander's perspective that I keep coming back to. If the commander sees value, if the commander sees a necessity, then it will happen. Marine Corps, Army, Navy doesn't make any difference.
00:10:48 BRIAN HANCOCK
make any difference. So when you're referring to Marine Corps, civil affairs, I understand why we would say Navy, civil affairs. But the Navy itself organically had its own. civil affairs program. We'll talk about that later. They disbanded it. So I just want to make sure that the audience understands that when you're saying Navy civil affairs, you're still referring to United States Marine Corps civil affairs.
00:11:09 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, but let's drill down on just one specific point. When it came down to BK -25, we reached out to the Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. And this is kind of analogous to your 38Gs in the USA. It's a very specific maritime focus for that commander. that says hey before i go into this littoral region with ships etc i'm not i need a really good evaluation of what's the host nation look like are they amenable and open to us being in the area yeah and then drilling down on that so we asked because they were clamoring to get involved in bk24 and immediately they responded with one of their maritime ca units great and then ideally we're going to do that in bk25 as well so i'm just trying to bring in the one ca mindset I really have to say it's not just lip service. Speaking about BK -25, Armed Forces of the Philippine CA is going to lend six teams. I see no reason why 351st CA leadership isn't going to lend at least one team, and I'm going to ask them for 38 calls. And then the Federation Combat Command will also be lending a Navy CA team. That's beautiful. I'll follow up with you, Brian, on how we were able to implement and share information and then inform the commander and see what the commander does.
00:12:23 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, awesome. For those Marines who are listening to our podcast right now, who might consider making that kind of a lat move, what does a typical duty day look like for you, Top? How do you spend your time? What types of activities are you engaged in? What's that quality of life look like for someone else who might consider coming on over?
00:12:46 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Let's say that this is anybody but a 17XXer. This is not somebody that's coming from the Comstrat Meso -Syop community at all. Right.
00:12:54 BRIAN HANCOCK
Infantry, sure.
00:12:56 ANDREW GONZALEZ
The beauty of Marine Corps Civil Affairs is that we take all comers because we need people that know and understand and speak logistics, know and understand infantry tactics and training, know and understand intel, and then you've got the civility component. So what it looks like is a pretty standard drill to suit one, two entirely dark months. Now, one in the summer and then one in December because most people are traveling and taking time off. And then we typically drill on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm just speaking about in September, it's going to be civil information management, which now we've got a very strong relationship with Marine Corps tactical support systems and software activity. Okay. So we're going to do some sim training. We're going to take a lot of the new joins and baseline them in MARSIMS, which is just like it sounds, Marine Corps civil information management. So with our Indopaycom and Southcom focused, What we're screening for is plasticity. We're screening for people that really want to take their existing skill set and apply it to the host nation. Because now we've got a really solid relationship with Indonesia and Malaysia. We're training side by side with their forces.
00:14:03 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. And look at the opportunities there. I mean, like Oceania, we're concerned about geopolitical alignments and West versus, say, China and civil affairs. They're kind of our unit of action for competition in this regard. They're wanted there. They go out, they add value, they create relationships and help remind those Pacific Island nations, many of which came into the Western purview as a result of World War II, why we're the best partners to have. So that seems to me like it's a very critical function, not just in the Philippines, but in all of these areas.
00:14:41 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Correct. No, 100%. It's one of those relationships that you and I had first kind of talked about and that I took a chance to reach out was 9th MSC, which is just a support organization, but the Oceania engagement team, that was who they were supporting principally.
00:14:57 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right.
00:14:58 ANDREW GONZALEZ
So then you fast forward because that was the 2017 timeframe for me, even though that's a very persistent task on the part of the U .S. Army. U .S. RPAC has forces in the Second Island chain and has had. since 1947 right more than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my
00:15:14 BRIAN HANCOCK
than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my credential, we were focused on civil military operations, which seems to resonate with Marines. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between civil military operations and civil affairs operations and why the Marine Corps, CA elements, might be more focused on the latter?
00:15:59 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Beginning in October 2015, when I first joined civil affairs, I would regularly conflate civil affairs with the activity of civil military operations. civil affairs is force description. We're out there supporting civil -military relationships, civil -military planning, et cetera, et cetera. One thing is the who, and the other thing is the do. And I don't think, but I have to kind of turn the question back on you, Brian, is after I describe what we think constitutes civil -military operations, I think what you will find is there's more similar than dissimilar to civil affairs operations. I really feel like they are more analogous than not.
00:16:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. I think the unit of action matters. Civil affairs operations have to be conducted by civil affairs forces, but civil military operations could be conducted by an infantry command. But I think they're achieving some similar purposes, and I think a number of the tasks are probably very similar.
00:16:51 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I agree, and that's a really interesting point. I just had that brief conversation with the Sergeant Major of 3rd MLR, and I said, Sergeant Major, we're at the tail end of EK -24, and so all their forces are out there distributed, and Sergeant Major's like, hey man, I've got an hour for you. Totally understand, Sergeant Major. If I could get your CONOPS, if I could find out what your commanding officer's guidance is with respect to employment of CA, and then tell me, this is the type of thing that we could help you in 25, all throughout FI -25. And he's like, hey, man, we're already ahead of you. We already did a request for forces, right? So, but the point I'm trying to make with that is, is their understanding of civil military in the LCTs, a very critical force enabler in the Marine Corps and throughout the DOD, because again, that's your asymmetric component, right? Those are the guys that are out there alone and unafraid, walking around with a ship killer. It's no small feat. But that commander was still like, you're involved in the planning. We do have good relationships with the host nation. But our mission can't be distracted by anything other than time -sensitive targets. And I'm being very, very reductive. But that was a sergeant major that was under pressure to literally get out the door so he'd get to the Philippines. But focus on the civil military operations component from commander to commander. And it's to the point where they want so much of our bandwidth that MFR is almost kind of pushing back. 1MF just keeps asking us for civil military operations support. Civ mil, civ mil, civ mil. But the bottom line is, at no other time have we been in such need to get people up to speed, take their existing specialty, and apply it to civil military operations planning. Much like what you're doing, what does the next generation of near peer, and we don't want it to get to combat. Yeah,
00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
absolutely.
00:18:33 ANDREW GONZALEZ
What does it look like for the host nation populations? within the second island chain within the first island chain yeah we're certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can you elaborate on that you're talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now
00:18:39 BRIAN HANCOCK
certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can
00:18:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ
you elaborate on that you're
00:18:45 BRIAN HANCOCK
talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now They come over and train, and they're met at the station, and they're given food, they're given water, they're given shelter. They help them find a longer -term place to be. They help them find work. It's a very, very serious situation. We understand what war crimes are. You're not supposed to blow up hospitals and schools and things like this, but Ukraine and the Russians are intentionally targeting them. They think they commit enough of these war crimes that they'll break the will of the people. You know, what we know historically, certainly when we're talking about large -scale bombing in World War II, that when you start doing these things, it actually has a reverse effect. It makes the people so angry that they double down on their commitment to fight you. So it's an ineffective strategy and blatantly immortal and unlawful. But that's the situation that is happening over there. Various elements are in talk with Ukrainian elements about... Depending on the different scenarios of how this ultimately plays out, there is going to be an enormous amount of work. There's going to be an enormous opportunity for civil military specialists to assist with the stabilization and rebuilding. And of course, through our CIMIC programs here in Europe, we are training a lot of Ukrainians and many other nations how to do these kinds of missions and to be prepared.
00:20:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, there's so much of what we hear and what we're hearing are, you know, tactical successes on the forward element. And whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, you typically only hear Poland or Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, all the nations that share that border, and they're all on edge, which they should be. It's actually not a bad state to be in. You just don't want to be there chronically, right? Right. But the point is, it is amazing how much work Poland and the former states of the Soviet Union are doing and continue to do to give those people safe harbor. But just pivoting over to Indopaycom, the role of civil military operations.
00:00:55 BRIAN HANCOCK
But just pivoting over to Indo -PACOM, the role of civil military operations. Once the balloon goes up, the areas where combat is actually going to be exploited to the degree that you can in northern Philippines and in the westernmost portion of Japan, because this has happened once before. The origins of Taiwan, when some of the existing peoples on the island were being displaced by Chiang Kai -shek, they headed to the westernmost portion of Japan. to these islands that had maybe 150 to 250 people on the entire island, but they're bringing in enough nourishment, enough fuel that they have homeostasis. What they have coming in and what they have going out, there's balance. And then you add 1 ,500 people that don't speak the language. That's just one tiny island in the westernmost portion of Japan's archipelago. I don't want to imagine it, but we have to. We should be forced to sit at a table and apply what we know. to people who know how to do it because nobody does HADR and nobody does complex emergency management like the Taiwanese. They do it every year, multiple times during a year. And the same goes for Japan. But who do it best are the Taiwanese. We have something to learn from them, honestly.
00:02:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I agree. Absolutely. And given that we have some great alliances and we work in joint combined environments, there's a lot of opportunity for cross -learning. Now, earlier we talked about Department of Navy civil affairs capabilities, and I just wanted to go back to that a little bit. Years ago, the Department of Navy had a separate and distinct civil affairs program from the Marine Corps civil affairs elements. Now, that program vested itself. It sounds like there's some emergent capability happening now. And of course, they retained their Marine Corps capability. With those forces being emergent, if the joint force needs something, say, a port assessment after a disaster, a system analysis of the economics of aquaculture in a given region, is that something Marine Corps civil affairs can provide? And if the Marine Corps civil affairs can't provide that maritime type expert level assessment, who should we be turning to for it as a force?
00:03:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
you would reach out to the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, the NEC, without a doubt. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. This is the units in peacetime that deliver by far the most value, not even relative to the amount of money spent. Let's just take the monetary component out. The people who have a forward -leaning presence into the First Island chain are the Bs.
00:03:42 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, CBs,
00:03:43 BRIAN HANCOCK
yeah. Yeah, the construction battalions. And so when it comes down to the naval, maritime -trained civil affairs, of which there's a very limited number, they're working hand -in -glove with the bees, with their Explosive Ordnance Bubbas, with their Expeditionary Security Force Bubbas, to say, hey, this is what you're going to encounter in this specific aspect of this specific island, right? Like, you're coming into this littoral region, this is what you can expect with expected depths, draft, and then the host nation population studies. They have that capability embedded in the neck. And so that's why we're really looking forward to working with them again in BK25. They love what we do and we love what they do. I can only imagine how when we did an innovative readiness training,
00:04:22 ANDREW GONZALEZ
how when we did an innovative readiness training, the native tribes in Alaska up there in Aleutians, many of the things that we found that could be done to help them, CBs could have done on the spot. Yeah. We had no capability. We had a planning and an assessment and analysis and a research capability. But that action arm that the bees offer, that would have been amazing to have. I see what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me. It sounds like a fantastic marriage of capability moving forward. When I introduced you, you mentioned a couple of the big missions that you've been involved in. But Operation Air Resolve and Operation Allies Welcome. Can you just tell us a little bit about what those missions were? and what the role of the Corps was.
00:05:16 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yep. So it was General Votel that was head of sync at the time. The portion that I want to hit you with is a success that really should never have been allowed. And that will make sense after I explain. Operation Enhanced Resolve winter into the spring of 2017. Mosul. It was a meat grinder for the Iraqi army because they're going house to house, door to door, booby traps. just a hellscape it's just getting crushed and so what was born out of that doctors without borders says we're not leaving but we need help and we never ask the dod ever because we don't want to be aligned with the dod right so picture this right so that message gets sent to oir command as oir receives this request for a conversation we just want to have a conversation to find out what if anything can be done Because everyone's hearing about the OBGYN that's wandering Western Iraq, trying to help women deliver babies, and then he gets decapitated, right? That's what you're dealing with. Medical professionals are targets, period. So fast forward, that happens at the beginning of my turn in mid -2017. We got all the way to a sit -down with the leadership of Doctors Without Borders, who flew in from New York, Belgium, and France. So five representatives come in and say, listen, you cannot divulge the fact that we are opening up direct line of communication to FOAR headquarters and our people on the ground. We ended up opening a line of communication. We got to the point where we actually tested it and it worked. Now, no assets were ever called for. We had a quick consult in the CJ39 with CENTCOM leadership, with USAID, and a member of General Hotel staff. And the question I was asked was, Who told you to bring Doctors Without Borders into the command headquarters to talk about a real -time tactical link? And I said, I was told by, you know, my leadership in the CJ39. So the point I'm trying to make with this is, please, please, please, your senior staff, your field grades, even a sergeant who's listening, who's applying themselves, doesn't make any difference. Ask the question. does hire no one understand what's going on? Because this got all the way to linking one radio with another, with a comm check. And General Votel, to my knowledge, did not have knowledge of it. His command, his staff did not have knowledge of the fact that that relationship had been enacted, had been moved. So I'm just saying things can get traction. You're thinking, wow, I'm doing the right thing, right? Like I am the humanitarian affairs deconfliction SNCOIC for CJTFOAR in phase three operations. This is the right thing to do so that we don't lose doctors. But honestly, it wasn't done the right way. I'm just letting people know that things can get momentum and their own inertia, but that doesn't mean that CONUS knows what's going on.
00:08:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Actually, I think an incredible success. As you said, Medicine Salts Franciard is an amazing organization. If they are actively being targeted and destroyed, as we've seen the Russians targeting their facilities in, say, Syria, they were using the Doctors Without Borders clinics. They're supposed to be protected under the law of war. They were using them as a targeting list, right? So that is unfortunately the reality of the adversaries we face. So I think it's a success story that there was enough adaptability shown by both parties to at least explore something. And having worked at four -star commands, I can also understand how difficult it is to reach senior decision makers. their ability to move at the speed of relevance, I would argue in many cases that they're just not capable of doing that, with some exceptions. This is one of the reasons why Secretary Mattis had a process he called skip echelon to tighten kilchines and other things to flow faster. But when you have an incident of that level of seriousness happening, in an area in blunt contact, in an austere region, everyone has to think out of the box a little bit. And then you add the five of war to that, right? So I certainly don't fault anyone involved in that. I think it is a great case study that should be talked about. I see that as the win. As a leader, sometimes making the wrong decision with alacrity is better than making no decision or waiting until it's irrelevant. In hindsight, it's very easy, I think, to look back at that. But thank you for sharing that amazing experience.
00:10:00 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. One kind of final cherry on top is when individuals in the reserves think that they're not going to be confronted with gravity, real gravity, where civil affairs isn't always looked upon fondly, civil military operations support isn't always looked upon fondly, especially when you're tactical. And you have to raise your hand in a room full of meat eaters. And you say, this is the reason you don't want to hit. That ambulance that you see clearly displayed by an MQ -9 in the middle of nowhere is ISIS and their families are evacuating Mosul, right? And you're saying, yeah, you could very easily take out those 10 buses. But this is why you don't want to do that. And this is the people that you contact. That takes courage. And that's what we're looking for. That person who raises their hand on the jock floor and says, I see what your MQ -9 sees. All we need to do is contact the Red Cross. confirm that that's a legitimate Red Crescent vehicle that's going into harm's way because they have to know and understand that an armed MQ9 is circling those 10 buses. That's the kind of individual that we're looking for. And we don't care if they're NCOs or staff NCOs, a company grade or a field grade. They just have to have knowledge, confidence, the courage of their convictions. And sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies,
00:11:15 ANDREW GONZALEZ
sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies, but... pointing out the potential economic loss that can occur. We're talking about dropping all those bridges in Baghdad. The cost to rebuild those things is enormous. Do you really want to do strategic destruction of them and have to completely rebuild them? Or might a tactical destruction be more appropriate? And again, it was a civil affairs officer who had to stand up and point that distinction out when on the job they were just looking at demolishing. all of them to prevent retreating forces. So yes, that is a very important part. You have to have some moxie and be willing to stand in the face of power, which is a moment of truth. You have to be willing to do that to survive in this branch and thrive. So well said. I'd like to turn the conversation to something that's been on a number of minds in the civil affairs communities, a lot of debate. But a few years ago, the Department of Defense created the Office for Civil Harm Mitigation Response, or CHMR. Some of the civil affairs professionals in the communities have expressed a concern that this new body may actually be kind of taking over some of the traditional mission, as defined by General Winfried Scott, from civil affairs. What do you think?
00:12:42 BRIAN HANCOCK
I don't think. I really don't, based on not just the August 22 release of the structure. for CHMR, but then also the December 2023 OSD release, but it's saying you, component commander, right, saying commando, pick on mother, are going to have this as a lens when it comes down to your host nation relationships and also the employment of American designed, engineered, and released weapons. I don't think that this has as much to do with civil military operations as it does our prosecution of combat operations in a given combatant command. So the CHMR has less to do with civil military operations as I understand it. It has more to do with when it comes down to your concept of operations for how you are going to defend some portion of the first island chain or break and enter here or at the strategic level. that you are informing your operational commanders and your tactical execution with these as potential restraints, not constraints.
00:13:48 ANDREW GONZALEZ
And that only becomes more complicated. But look at a joint combined environment now where each individual host nation has a say on the employment of force because of ABO and other things. We saw in Bosnia that quickly became unwieldy. You couldn't do it because it started out with 50 targets on your targeting list. And by the time... every nation had pulled its picks off the list, you had about 15 targets left. So I think there's some complexity there. I am a little bit concerned in the way it's described as a lens, similar to Women, Peace, and Security, that's also kind of seen as a lens. The problem with that in a military organization is that we are action -oriented organizations. And if you do not have mission essential tasks, associated with something that then get rated, validated, and recorded in the USR process, it's probably not something you're going to do. How do you train to a lens? How do you validate a lens? How do you operationalize something like that? It has to be operational to truly be relevant to the military. Now, I know it's new. 2022 is not a long ago. I suspect they're still working through that. But I am concerned about the practical implementation of that.
00:15:12 BRIAN HANCOCK
So it is new. It's so new that when I spoke to Major Weyland, he's dual -hatted as a reserve civil affairs bubba with RG9. His real -time job in the civilian world is USAID. I said, Weyland, can you please tell me what USAID's position is? Or what are they training to? How does this change the nature of AID and the DOD? And he's like, this is just too new. It's making its way into AID. And we're looking at the primary, secondary and tertiary impacts to relationships and how this is going to be perceived within the DoD. So it's very new. I did notice that there are pilot trainings that are going to be taking place for staff associated with the component commands. Attend the training, find out what this is about, see how this is going to impact your planning cycle. So, like I said, it's probably a good year to two years before we see something precipitate out. And I'm focusing on AID and DOD because that, to me, is kind of where the rubber meets the road because you've got a civilian agency that's tasked with coordinating with U .N. agencies, World Health Organization, World Food Program, but not limited to those people, UNOCHO and others.
00:16:12 SPEAKER_00
civilian agency
00:16:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
And now you're saying, OK, take the strategic, operational and tactical, that compression that I talked about. real -time information to be fed into this so that the commander has as much time and space, and we're talking about now instead of days, we're talking about hours, to make a decision on what ordinance gets dropped where and to what effect. And I'm asking you, do you think non -kinetic was as utilized in 2017 as it could have been?
00:16:45 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Definitely not. Right. And now looking at adding competition into the continuum in the range of military operations. where we're going to be the majority of the time. What's your rounds to fire in competition? Well, they're not lethal, right? Yep. Because except for some soft action against very select targets and some denied activities, it's not going to be acceptable to go in there and killing people and breaking things. Yep. That's not how you convince folks to come to your coalition. So absolutely, there's a lot of work to be done and we didn't do enough there. What we did do got criticized by Rand and others, at least in some cases. And some of that criticism was legitimate. So there's, I think, a lot more work that can be done there.
00:17:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. And you, when it comes down to this multinational land component commander concept, I can't even begin to wrap my head around. My head was spinning, as you were describing, because it's just distributed operations. Right. Land -based, as opposed to maritime -based. It's the same problem set, like rail gauges. With a lot more people.
00:17:50 ANDREW GONZALEZ
With a lot more people. There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.
00:17:51 BRIAN HANCOCK
There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.
00:17:53 ANDREW GONZALEZ
in the ocean when you're doing distributed maritime operations, right?
00:17:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
And if the balloon goes up, we do have limited ability while the air is uncontested and while the seas are uncontested to get civilians away.
00:18:06 ANDREW GONZALEZ
We have a few minutes left. I'd kind of like to close up by returning to some of the innovation that the Marine Corps has been doing in the last several years. You've talked a bit about the 17XX MOS. Some things we haven't talked as much about are the development and utilization of the Marine Expeditionary Force Information Groups, the MIGs, and the deployment of the Tactical Assault Kit. Can you tell the audience a little bit about those developments?
00:18:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
The MIG is really focused on PSYOPs, Comstrat, and MISO. They're excellent at what they do. We do have some OneMeth integration between CA and Comstrat, obviously, for BK25 with respect to their narratives and our public affairs guidance that's going to be issued. And it's going to be very similar to BK24 from what I'm hearing. So again, we don't want to spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things we don't need to. Let's focus on the things that we really do need to. And that namely are the relationships and the things like tactical assault kit. So it sounds like it's an actual piece of gear, but it's not. It is a common tactical picture in the most reductive sense. But the bottom line is the reason that this is becoming so prolific throughout the DoD is because you can develop. a map support and a common tactical picture that can be fed up to feed a common operational picture very readily because it's very lightweight and it's OS agnostic. And so it's basically just taking over because it is so adaptable. And when it comes down to air component, land component, logistics component in the Marine Corps needing a specific tool set. to help manage information and get that information to the logistics commander. And then the logistics commander can inform the CJA commander. This is the way to do it. So I am asking everyone out there, go to the MCTESA website, Marine Corps Tactical Software Support Activity website. Log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division. And MCTESA has really gone to great lengths to host what's called TechTube. And what it is, is a series of YouTube videos on all of the software that the Marine Corps currently is fueling. All the systems of record and some of the systems that are not of record. Tactical Assault Kit is not currently a program of record, but we're, you know, high speed moving towards that to make it a program of record. So how civil affairs is planning to utilize this. And ideally we get our ducks in a row with respect to data because everybody and their mother wants Starlink. Right. You can only spread that so thin and reserves are not going to be at the top of any list when it comes down to. No. So we have to rely on in -country data, which is doable, but we have to just learning from BK24, we have to get enough data for a long enough period of time to support TAK. Even though it's lightweight, it's like anything else. It's a cell phone. We currently are outfitted with Galaxy S22s. That's how we conduct our KLEs. That's how we do our, you know, our engagements and do our site assessments. And it's all done on this handheld. And now ATAK, the Android version of TAK, Civ, as opposed to Mill, there's two flavors of TAK. Civilian is, you can just go to any download. You can go to the Android store, you can go to the Apple store, download your civilian variant of TAK, and immediately start using it. But if you want to know how to use it, whether it's the civilian or the military variant, just go to MCTISA, the website, you need a CAT card, log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division, and then drill down on the TechTube videos. And you can immediately see just how user -friendly this system is. And so our goal at EarthCAG is to make this an application alongside Martians. So it's already built into the image when we receive our Martians gear, our Galaxy S22s. So we're organizing some training with MCTISA. And this is one of those things where we want to be able to get the army in on this. We want to be able to get the armed forces of the Philippines. There's no constraints on using. the civilian variant of TAK with our host nation partners. So how do you want to know where your people are and what they're doing? This is how we're going to do it. That's how I plan to give our commander a common tactical picture and roll up the multinational joint civil affairs outreach and civil military operations employment in theater. That's how we're going to do it as VATAC.
00:22:23 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Well, you've convinced me. I am going to go take a look at that and I'm excited. Mictissa, here I come. I'm going to take a look at the tactical assault kit. Certainly working at the ASCC, if this looks good, I'll definitely be talking to some of my Army colleagues about that. Thank you for your time today, Top. I really appreciate it. Really appreciate everything you're doing as well as what your colleagues at First CAG have been doing. It's been a fantastic relationship and we're looking forward, I know, certainly at 351 and in other. civil affairs formation to working with you in the future.
00:22:58 BRIAN HANCOCK
Ryan, thank you for leaning into the relationship. I don't know of too many others in the civil affairs community independent of service that have gone to the lengths that you have to bring in new ideas, to take some time to listen and learn from one another and actually get this to be applied because that's the only way that we're going to skin the cat.
00:23:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Well said. Thank you also to the audience for joining us for this session. And we'll be putting out some more content from the United States Marine Corps in future sessions.
00:23:32 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field. working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, 1CA Podcast.
Tuesday Oct 22, 2024
Tuesday Oct 22, 2024
Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today, Brian Hancock talks with Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez about how the Marine Corps' modernization is shifting Civil Affairs' roles and duties in the force and how those changes impact their work in the Pacific.
MSgt Andrew Gonzalez joined the USMC-CA community in October 2015 as an E7. CA activations of note include OCT 2017 CJTF-OIR, clear and hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, DEC 2021 in support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, VA, a rare opportunity to support a Defense Support of Civil Authorities mission. MSgt Gonzalez was most recently activated in support of JTF-Red Hill, the safe and expedient refueling of the underground fuel storage facility on the island of Oahu. Allowed to meet with the Waianae Kupuna Council to discuss the transition from JTF-Red Hill leadership and mission to the Red Hill – Navy Closure Task Force.
MSgt Gonzalez has supported 1st Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years and continues to drive USA-USMC CA collaborative efforts, civil information management best practice, and USMC - Civil Military Operations training standards in direct response to OSD/INDOPACOM/MARFORPAC/IMEF demand for CA and Civic Action Team support.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
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Special Thanks to "Cool Jazz Hot Bossa" for the sample of Energy Jazz Music Playlist - Jazz Instrumental Upbeat - High Energy Jazz Music Mix. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/bdWUj2NYDYQ?si=_bLf2fdTw6Ba93oh
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Transcript
00:00:04 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:40 BRIAN HANCOCK
Welcome to One Civil Affairs Podcast. I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez to discuss United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs, Civil Information Management, and civil harm mitigation and response. Master Sergeant Andrew Gonzalez joined the United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs community in October 2015 as an E -7. Civil Affairs activations of note include Combined Joint Task Force, Operation Inherent Resolve, Clear and Hold Mosul after displacing ISIS, Support of Operation Allies Welcome operating out of Fort Pickett, Virginia, which was a rare opportunity to support a defense support to civil authorities mission. Master Sergeant Gonzalez has supported First Civil Affairs Group for nearly 10 years in direct response to the Secretary of Defense, INDO -PACOM, MARFOR -PAC, and IMEF. Boy, that's a lot of acronyms. Top, welcome to the show. Great to link up, Ryan. It's been a while. Far, far too long. The last time we worked together, we were lamenting the state of civil information management in both the Marine Corps and the Army because we saw the potential there to help us achieve strategic objectives that are often tied to the civil population.
00:02:03 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, I can only speak for the Marine Corps. And then, you know, because you were with McTog at the time and then you had a leg inside, I think it was 351st KCOM. So that's what always made the conversation interesting. So you could just step into both worlds and say, this is what I'm learning on the USA, CA side. Conversely, this is what McTog is doing it. And really what it came down to was the commander's perspective.
00:02:25 BRIAN HANCOCK
Absolutely. I am very grateful to the Marine Corps for the opportunity to learn, you know, both from professionals such as yourself, as well as from some of your schools, like the Civil Military Operations Planners course back in Quantica. Amazingly good. I'm really excited to have you here today because you're going to give us a much -needed additional perspective and thought on some of these challenges that we're wrestling with, frankly, all over the world.
00:02:55 ANDREW GONZALEZ
You and I had first connected, and all throughout that time, numbers are shrinking, toker shrinking, and we're like, where's value? And that came into our initial dialogues with civil information management, thinking that, hey, we could probably get some traction with this, but ultimately, it took several years, but then... I call it the great IF Sauron, right? The DOD looked west and said, hey, Indo -PACOM, this is the simple problem. But I just felt like when it came to developing relationships with the host nation, that's a given. We're going to be placed inside the host nation. But what's the commander's perception? And that's where I want to kind of pick up the conversation due to the fact that that has changed. And now it's coming down to IMF landing general saying, what I witnessed in Vallarta 1024. With respect to the civil affairs engagement in theater, I want more of it. I want more cowbell. And that's what we're going to deliver it in Balakatan 25. With the planning that's going on right now after the initial planning conference that I just got back from, I asked for it. And without hesitation, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, G7, responded with, we are going to give you civil affairs teams. So it's just a much more open, much more inclusive, much more inviting environment when it comes to the civil picture.
00:04:08 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's fantastic. In 351, a number of years ago, I was involved in Balakatan. And previously, when I was in the SIOP demand, now military information support and operations, we participated there. And it was not easy, and it was not friendly, and it was not open like that. And it was really just an opportunity to send some of our service members who spoke to Gallic to go on over there. There was some increase in capability of the Philippine Defense Force, but they were still very much struggling against Abu Sayyaf and MNLC and these other terrorist organizations that were operating at the Holo Archipelago. It was just a really rough time. So it's fantastic to hear that years later, fast forward now, and we have a much stronger relationship, a much more effective relationship, a stronger partnership. We're talking about reopening some of our military bases there. We've lost some of those bases years ago, which allows China certainly to say, OK, if you only got one major port where you can do roll on, roll off operations, boy, we know where to set up our ISR and target. Right. So the strength of that relationship and the work that you're doing out there, I think, is really important. I'm glad to hear how it's progressed.
00:05:19 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I have a couple of relationships with 351st KCOM 3Shot. So maybe sometime after the podcast, we'll reconnect and talk through. Some of the collaboration, because it's been a while since I've talked with them. But during the initial planning conference, I reached into USRPAC to say, hey, we would really, really appreciate some USACA flavor. And the response was, what do we need to do? I said, can you put me in touch with 350 first? And it happened that day.
00:05:46 BRIAN HANCOCK
While you reconnect there, make sure our 38 golf program with all of those PhD level experts and everything from medicine to engineering, that is really taking off. 38 golf, got it. Yes, that MOS within the functioning specialty team constructs that we have in the Army is delivering incredible value. For instance, in our region, they recently did the NATO 7 resiliency studies of other areas, which is things we should be working in competition, and food resiliency within Medova and other areas. These things are such quality, they're being published in Military Review. And right now, the iron is hot because they're still trying to figure out... How do you utilize those 38 golfs and functional specialty teams? So make sure as we partner with you in the ground combat element in the core that we're fully utilizing some of those capabilities I think would add a lot of value to those of you who are doing planning on the Mew and doing assessments.
00:06:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, it's very easy to say things like 1CA, okay? It's the people. It's individuals that see and understand that given the tyranny of distance, there's lots of things, right? Like expeditionary. advanced -based operations. And just that there's no possible way that one service couldn't cover all that distance and cover down on all of those requirements. So the bottom line is we have so much to learn from one another. And I am definitely going to discuss that with 351st S3 Shop for sure.
00:07:11 BRIAN HANCOCK
Fantastic. I really encouraged to hear that. And I know 351st will receive that well. Many of our listeners happen to be Army just because there's a little bit more civil affairs in the Army. The Marine Corps is a little bit smaller force. Let's level the table a little bit, help them understand some of the Marine Corps civil affairs structure. For instance, in the Army civil affairs, this is a non -accession branch, certainly for officers it is. But here's the thing, both officers and NCOs, once they get the MOS, can spend their entire careers in civil affairs. And the way the pyramid is built out, there's plenty of room and plenty of slots for promotion. So it's very realistic that you can be awarded. a 38 MOS in the Army, and then that's it. That's what you'll be doing for the next 15 plus years or however long you go until you choose to retire. Now, I understand the Marine Corps, it's not like that. Can you elaborate a little bit on how that process is for Marines?
00:08:11 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, you're 100 % right with respect to officers. Once you get to E -8 and E -9 in the Marine Corps, you suddenly start to see how difficult it is for the O -4 and above. to get to kernel. And it is incredibly competitive. So what's also happening is the 17XX migration. But that came out of not just consolidating MISO and Comstrat and SIOP and civil affairs all under one MOS branch. And some space operations in there too, I recall. It's what's required, right? In order for us to work through any kind of distributed operations, we're going to have to rely on space substantially. Yes. But these changes are happening at the headquarters Marine Corps level where 17XX will now give officers a career path. Nice. In 17XX. And this is where you and I were having conversations about what does that mean for Reserve CA? Are we going to be completely replaced, supplanted, marginalized?
00:09:10 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right.
00:09:10 ANDREW GONZALEZ
And in the end. From 21 to 24, we learned that even though our schoolhouse got completely consumed with consolidating the MISO, the PSYOP, the Comstrat, the CA schools, all in one building, to teaching the entire 17XX curriculum.
00:09:25 BRIAN HANCOCK
In fairness, the Marine Corps has done some massive changes, at least relative to, say, the Army, which turns a little bit slower. Look at their entire divestiture of tanks under Commandant Berger. And the standing up of these Marine littoral regiments. uh brand new formations the very new equipment that they're looking at that's tied into very specific missions the marine corps is innovating across stop gulf pp very quickly it's impressive to see i popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs
00:09:57 ANDREW GONZALEZ
popped into third mlr in oahu when i was there from october to april 2024 and asked them about civil affairs And their concept of civil affairs employment wasn't so much about understanding the civil population. It was really just understanding that they're there. We're going to take this into consideration. But there was no real collaboration, if you will. But what they did was, as they reached out to requisition CA specifically, because they recognized that there was a little bit of a delta there. And they wanted to make sure that civil affairs had a seat at the planning table when it came to MLR and specifically overall combat team operations.
00:10:36 BRIAN HANCOCK
Good.
00:10:36 ANDREW GONZALEZ
It's a part of their training tasks. And that's the commander's perspective that I keep coming back to. If the commander sees value, if the commander sees a necessity, then it will happen. Marine Corps, Army, Navy doesn't make any difference.
00:10:48 BRIAN HANCOCK
make any difference. So when you're referring to Marine Corps, civil affairs, I understand why we would say Navy, civil affairs. But the Navy itself organically had its own. civil affairs program. We'll talk about that later. They disbanded it. So I just want to make sure that the audience understands that when you're saying Navy civil affairs, you're still referring to United States Marine Corps civil affairs.
00:11:09 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, but let's drill down on just one specific point. When it came down to BK -25, we reached out to the Naval Expeditionary Combat Command. And this is kind of analogous to your 38Gs in the USA. It's a very specific maritime focus for that commander. that says hey before i go into this littoral region with ships etc i'm not i need a really good evaluation of what's the host nation look like are they amenable and open to us being in the area yeah and then drilling down on that so we asked because they were clamoring to get involved in bk24 and immediately they responded with one of their maritime ca units great and then ideally we're going to do that in bk25 as well so i'm just trying to bring in the one ca mindset I really have to say it's not just lip service. Speaking about BK -25, Armed Forces of the Philippine CA is going to lend six teams. I see no reason why 351st CA leadership isn't going to lend at least one team, and I'm going to ask them for 38 calls. And then the Federation Combat Command will also be lending a Navy CA team. That's beautiful. I'll follow up with you, Brian, on how we were able to implement and share information and then inform the commander and see what the commander does.
00:12:23 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, awesome. For those Marines who are listening to our podcast right now, who might consider making that kind of a lat move, what does a typical duty day look like for you, Top? How do you spend your time? What types of activities are you engaged in? What's that quality of life look like for someone else who might consider coming on over?
00:12:46 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Let's say that this is anybody but a 17XXer. This is not somebody that's coming from the Comstrat Meso -Syop community at all. Right.
00:12:54 BRIAN HANCOCK
Infantry, sure.
00:12:56 ANDREW GONZALEZ
The beauty of Marine Corps Civil Affairs is that we take all comers because we need people that know and understand and speak logistics, know and understand infantry tactics and training, know and understand intel, and then you've got the civility component. So what it looks like is a pretty standard drill to suit one, two entirely dark months. Now, one in the summer and then one in December because most people are traveling and taking time off. And then we typically drill on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I'm just speaking about in September, it's going to be civil information management, which now we've got a very strong relationship with Marine Corps tactical support systems and software activity. Okay. So we're going to do some sim training. We're going to take a lot of the new joins and baseline them in MARSIMS, which is just like it sounds, Marine Corps civil information management. So with our Indopaycom and Southcom focused, What we're screening for is plasticity. We're screening for people that really want to take their existing skill set and apply it to the host nation. Because now we've got a really solid relationship with Indonesia and Malaysia. We're training side by side with their forces.
00:14:03 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. And look at the opportunities there. I mean, like Oceania, we're concerned about geopolitical alignments and West versus, say, China and civil affairs. They're kind of our unit of action for competition in this regard. They're wanted there. They go out, they add value, they create relationships and help remind those Pacific Island nations, many of which came into the Western purview as a result of World War II, why we're the best partners to have. So that seems to me like it's a very critical function, not just in the Philippines, but in all of these areas.
00:14:41 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Correct. No, 100%. It's one of those relationships that you and I had first kind of talked about and that I took a chance to reach out was 9th MSC, which is just a support organization, but the Oceania engagement team, that was who they were supporting principally.
00:14:57 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right.
00:14:58 ANDREW GONZALEZ
So then you fast forward because that was the 2017 timeframe for me, even though that's a very persistent task on the part of the U .S. Army. U .S. RPAC has forces in the Second Island chain and has had. since 1947 right more than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my
00:15:14 BRIAN HANCOCK
than ever as we work through this competition problem set 99 of the time civil affairs just has a huge role play everything that we do that matters is joint combined it's just really exciting to hear what that felt that has been since 2017 and that the future just it looks really bright now we've been talking a little bit about civil affairs operations when i went to the civil military operations school to get my credential, we were focused on civil military operations, which seems to resonate with Marines. Can you tell us a little bit about the difference between civil military operations and civil affairs operations and why the Marine Corps, CA elements, might be more focused on the latter?
00:15:59 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Beginning in October 2015, when I first joined civil affairs, I would regularly conflate civil affairs with the activity of civil military operations. civil affairs is force description. We're out there supporting civil -military relationships, civil -military planning, et cetera, et cetera. One thing is the who, and the other thing is the do. And I don't think, but I have to kind of turn the question back on you, Brian, is after I describe what we think constitutes civil -military operations, I think what you will find is there's more similar than dissimilar to civil affairs operations. I really feel like they are more analogous than not.
00:16:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. I think the unit of action matters. Civil affairs operations have to be conducted by civil affairs forces, but civil military operations could be conducted by an infantry command. But I think they're achieving some similar purposes, and I think a number of the tasks are probably very similar.
00:16:51 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I agree, and that's a really interesting point. I just had that brief conversation with the Sergeant Major of 3rd MLR, and I said, Sergeant Major, we're at the tail end of EK -24, and so all their forces are out there distributed, and Sergeant Major's like, hey man, I've got an hour for you. Totally understand, Sergeant Major. If I could get your CONOPS, if I could find out what your commanding officer's guidance is with respect to employment of CA, and then tell me, this is the type of thing that we could help you in 25, all throughout FI -25. And he's like, hey, man, we're already ahead of you. We already did a request for forces, right? So, but the point I'm trying to make with that is, is their understanding of civil military in the LCTs, a very critical force enabler in the Marine Corps and throughout the DOD, because again, that's your asymmetric component, right? Those are the guys that are out there alone and unafraid, walking around with a ship killer. It's no small feat. But that commander was still like, you're involved in the planning. We do have good relationships with the host nation. But our mission can't be distracted by anything other than time -sensitive targets. And I'm being very, very reductive. But that was a sergeant major that was under pressure to literally get out the door so he'd get to the Philippines. But focus on the civil military operations component from commander to commander. And it's to the point where they want so much of our bandwidth that MFR is almost kind of pushing back. 1MF just keeps asking us for civil military operations support. Civ mil, civ mil, civ mil. But the bottom line is, at no other time have we been in such need to get people up to speed, take their existing specialty, and apply it to civil military operations planning. Much like what you're doing, what does the next generation of near peer, and we don't want it to get to combat. Yeah,
00:18:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
absolutely.
00:18:33 ANDREW GONZALEZ
What does it look like for the host nation populations? within the second island chain within the first island chain yeah we're certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can you elaborate on that you're talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now
00:18:39 BRIAN HANCOCK
certainly getting a pretty close look at that in ukraine and it it's devastating can
00:18:43 ANDREW GONZALEZ
you elaborate on that you're
00:18:45 BRIAN HANCOCK
talking about millions of people displaced flowing over borders now poland unbelievable the reception they'll give the ukrainians i think they have at least a million that they're looking out for right now They come over and train, and they're met at the station, and they're given food, they're given water, they're given shelter. They help them find a longer -term place to be. They help them find work. It's a very, very serious situation. We understand what war crimes are. You're not supposed to blow up hospitals and schools and things like this, but Ukraine and the Russians are intentionally targeting them. They think they commit enough of these war crimes that they'll break the will of the people. You know, what we know historically, certainly when we're talking about large -scale bombing in World War II, that when you start doing these things, it actually has a reverse effect. It makes the people so angry that they double down on their commitment to fight you. So it's an ineffective strategy and blatantly immortal and unlawful. But that's the situation that is happening over there. Various elements are in talk with Ukrainian elements about... Depending on the different scenarios of how this ultimately plays out, there is going to be an enormous amount of work. There's going to be an enormous opportunity for civil military specialists to assist with the stabilization and rebuilding. And of course, through our CIMIC programs here in Europe, we are training a lot of Ukrainians and many other nations how to do these kinds of missions and to be prepared.
00:20:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, there's so much of what we hear and what we're hearing are, you know, tactical successes on the forward element. And whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, you typically only hear Poland or Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, all the nations that share that border, and they're all on edge, which they should be. It's actually not a bad state to be in. You just don't want to be there chronically, right? Right. But the point is, it is amazing how much work Poland and the former states of the Soviet Union are doing and continue to do to give those people safe harbor. But just pivoting over to Indopaycom, the role of civil military operations.
00:00:55 BRIAN HANCOCK
But just pivoting over to Indo -PACOM, the role of civil military operations. Once the balloon goes up, the areas where combat is actually going to be exploited to the degree that you can in northern Philippines and in the westernmost portion of Japan, because this has happened once before. The origins of Taiwan, when some of the existing peoples on the island were being displaced by Chiang Kai -shek, they headed to the westernmost portion of Japan. to these islands that had maybe 150 to 250 people on the entire island, but they're bringing in enough nourishment, enough fuel that they have homeostasis. What they have coming in and what they have going out, there's balance. And then you add 1 ,500 people that don't speak the language. That's just one tiny island in the westernmost portion of Japan's archipelago. I don't want to imagine it, but we have to. We should be forced to sit at a table and apply what we know. to people who know how to do it because nobody does HADR and nobody does complex emergency management like the Taiwanese. They do it every year, multiple times during a year. And the same goes for Japan. But who do it best are the Taiwanese. We have something to learn from them, honestly.
00:02:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ
I agree. Absolutely. And given that we have some great alliances and we work in joint combined environments, there's a lot of opportunity for cross -learning. Now, earlier we talked about Department of Navy civil affairs capabilities, and I just wanted to go back to that a little bit. Years ago, the Department of Navy had a separate and distinct civil affairs program from the Marine Corps civil affairs elements. Now, that program vested itself. It sounds like there's some emergent capability happening now. And of course, they retained their Marine Corps capability. With those forces being emergent, if the joint force needs something, say, a port assessment after a disaster, a system analysis of the economics of aquaculture in a given region, is that something Marine Corps civil affairs can provide? And if the Marine Corps civil affairs can't provide that maritime type expert level assessment, who should we be turning to for it as a force?
00:03:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
you would reach out to the Navy Expeditionary Combat Command, the NEC, without a doubt. And I'm not just blowing smoke here. This is the units in peacetime that deliver by far the most value, not even relative to the amount of money spent. Let's just take the monetary component out. The people who have a forward -leaning presence into the First Island chain are the Bs.
00:03:42 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Yeah, CBs,
00:03:43 BRIAN HANCOCK
yeah. Yeah, the construction battalions. And so when it comes down to the naval, maritime -trained civil affairs, of which there's a very limited number, they're working hand -in -glove with the bees, with their Explosive Ordnance Bubbas, with their Expeditionary Security Force Bubbas, to say, hey, this is what you're going to encounter in this specific aspect of this specific island, right? Like, you're coming into this littoral region, this is what you can expect with expected depths, draft, and then the host nation population studies. They have that capability embedded in the neck. And so that's why we're really looking forward to working with them again in BK25. They love what we do and we love what they do. I can only imagine how when we did an innovative readiness training,
00:04:22 ANDREW GONZALEZ
how when we did an innovative readiness training, the native tribes in Alaska up there in Aleutians, many of the things that we found that could be done to help them, CBs could have done on the spot. Yeah. We had no capability. We had a planning and an assessment and analysis and a research capability. But that action arm that the bees offer, that would have been amazing to have. I see what you're saying. It makes perfect sense to me. It sounds like a fantastic marriage of capability moving forward. When I introduced you, you mentioned a couple of the big missions that you've been involved in. But Operation Air Resolve and Operation Allies Welcome. Can you just tell us a little bit about what those missions were? and what the role of the Corps was.
00:05:16 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yep. So it was General Votel that was head of sync at the time. The portion that I want to hit you with is a success that really should never have been allowed. And that will make sense after I explain. Operation Enhanced Resolve winter into the spring of 2017. Mosul. It was a meat grinder for the Iraqi army because they're going house to house, door to door, booby traps. just a hellscape it's just getting crushed and so what was born out of that doctors without borders says we're not leaving but we need help and we never ask the dod ever because we don't want to be aligned with the dod right so picture this right so that message gets sent to oir command as oir receives this request for a conversation we just want to have a conversation to find out what if anything can be done Because everyone's hearing about the OBGYN that's wandering Western Iraq, trying to help women deliver babies, and then he gets decapitated, right? That's what you're dealing with. Medical professionals are targets, period. So fast forward, that happens at the beginning of my turn in mid -2017. We got all the way to a sit -down with the leadership of Doctors Without Borders, who flew in from New York, Belgium, and France. So five representatives come in and say, listen, you cannot divulge the fact that we are opening up direct line of communication to FOAR headquarters and our people on the ground. We ended up opening a line of communication. We got to the point where we actually tested it and it worked. Now, no assets were ever called for. We had a quick consult in the CJ39 with CENTCOM leadership, with USAID, and a member of General Hotel staff. And the question I was asked was, Who told you to bring Doctors Without Borders into the command headquarters to talk about a real -time tactical link? And I said, I was told by, you know, my leadership in the CJ39. So the point I'm trying to make with this is, please, please, please, your senior staff, your field grades, even a sergeant who's listening, who's applying themselves, doesn't make any difference. Ask the question. does hire no one understand what's going on? Because this got all the way to linking one radio with another, with a comm check. And General Votel, to my knowledge, did not have knowledge of it. His command, his staff did not have knowledge of the fact that that relationship had been enacted, had been moved. So I'm just saying things can get traction. You're thinking, wow, I'm doing the right thing, right? Like I am the humanitarian affairs deconfliction SNCOIC for CJTFOAR in phase three operations. This is the right thing to do so that we don't lose doctors. But honestly, it wasn't done the right way. I'm just letting people know that things can get momentum and their own inertia, but that doesn't mean that CONUS knows what's going on.
00:08:12 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Actually, I think an incredible success. As you said, Medicine Salts Franciard is an amazing organization. If they are actively being targeted and destroyed, as we've seen the Russians targeting their facilities in, say, Syria, they were using the Doctors Without Borders clinics. They're supposed to be protected under the law of war. They were using them as a targeting list, right? So that is unfortunately the reality of the adversaries we face. So I think it's a success story that there was enough adaptability shown by both parties to at least explore something. And having worked at four -star commands, I can also understand how difficult it is to reach senior decision makers. their ability to move at the speed of relevance, I would argue in many cases that they're just not capable of doing that, with some exceptions. This is one of the reasons why Secretary Mattis had a process he called skip echelon to tighten kilchines and other things to flow faster. But when you have an incident of that level of seriousness happening, in an area in blunt contact, in an austere region, everyone has to think out of the box a little bit. And then you add the five of war to that, right? So I certainly don't fault anyone involved in that. I think it is a great case study that should be talked about. I see that as the win. As a leader, sometimes making the wrong decision with alacrity is better than making no decision or waiting until it's irrelevant. In hindsight, it's very easy, I think, to look back at that. But thank you for sharing that amazing experience.
00:10:00 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. One kind of final cherry on top is when individuals in the reserves think that they're not going to be confronted with gravity, real gravity, where civil affairs isn't always looked upon fondly, civil military operations support isn't always looked upon fondly, especially when you're tactical. And you have to raise your hand in a room full of meat eaters. And you say, this is the reason you don't want to hit. That ambulance that you see clearly displayed by an MQ -9 in the middle of nowhere is ISIS and their families are evacuating Mosul, right? And you're saying, yeah, you could very easily take out those 10 buses. But this is why you don't want to do that. And this is the people that you contact. That takes courage. And that's what we're looking for. That person who raises their hand on the jock floor and says, I see what your MQ -9 sees. All we need to do is contact the Red Cross. confirm that that's a legitimate Red Crescent vehicle that's going into harm's way because they have to know and understand that an armed MQ9 is circling those 10 buses. That's the kind of individual that we're looking for. And we don't care if they're NCOs or staff NCOs, a company grade or a field grade. They just have to have knowledge, confidence, the courage of their convictions. And sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies,
00:11:15 ANDREW GONZALEZ
sometimes the strength of those convictions may not just be protecting those lies, but... pointing out the potential economic loss that can occur. We're talking about dropping all those bridges in Baghdad. The cost to rebuild those things is enormous. Do you really want to do strategic destruction of them and have to completely rebuild them? Or might a tactical destruction be more appropriate? And again, it was a civil affairs officer who had to stand up and point that distinction out when on the job they were just looking at demolishing. all of them to prevent retreating forces. So yes, that is a very important part. You have to have some moxie and be willing to stand in the face of power, which is a moment of truth. You have to be willing to do that to survive in this branch and thrive. So well said. I'd like to turn the conversation to something that's been on a number of minds in the civil affairs communities, a lot of debate. But a few years ago, the Department of Defense created the Office for Civil Harm Mitigation Response, or CHMR. Some of the civil affairs professionals in the communities have expressed a concern that this new body may actually be kind of taking over some of the traditional mission, as defined by General Winfried Scott, from civil affairs. What do you think?
00:12:42 BRIAN HANCOCK
I don't think. I really don't, based on not just the August 22 release of the structure. for CHMR, but then also the December 2023 OSD release, but it's saying you, component commander, right, saying commando, pick on mother, are going to have this as a lens when it comes down to your host nation relationships and also the employment of American designed, engineered, and released weapons. I don't think that this has as much to do with civil military operations as it does our prosecution of combat operations in a given combatant command. So the CHMR has less to do with civil military operations as I understand it. It has more to do with when it comes down to your concept of operations for how you are going to defend some portion of the first island chain or break and enter here or at the strategic level. that you are informing your operational commanders and your tactical execution with these as potential restraints, not constraints.
00:13:48 ANDREW GONZALEZ
And that only becomes more complicated. But look at a joint combined environment now where each individual host nation has a say on the employment of force because of ABO and other things. We saw in Bosnia that quickly became unwieldy. You couldn't do it because it started out with 50 targets on your targeting list. And by the time... every nation had pulled its picks off the list, you had about 15 targets left. So I think there's some complexity there. I am a little bit concerned in the way it's described as a lens, similar to Women, Peace, and Security, that's also kind of seen as a lens. The problem with that in a military organization is that we are action -oriented organizations. And if you do not have mission essential tasks, associated with something that then get rated, validated, and recorded in the USR process, it's probably not something you're going to do. How do you train to a lens? How do you validate a lens? How do you operationalize something like that? It has to be operational to truly be relevant to the military. Now, I know it's new. 2022 is not a long ago. I suspect they're still working through that. But I am concerned about the practical implementation of that.
00:15:12 BRIAN HANCOCK
So it is new. It's so new that when I spoke to Major Weyland, he's dual -hatted as a reserve civil affairs bubba with RG9. His real -time job in the civilian world is USAID. I said, Weyland, can you please tell me what USAID's position is? Or what are they training to? How does this change the nature of AID and the DOD? And he's like, this is just too new. It's making its way into AID. And we're looking at the primary, secondary and tertiary impacts to relationships and how this is going to be perceived within the DoD. So it's very new. I did notice that there are pilot trainings that are going to be taking place for staff associated with the component commands. Attend the training, find out what this is about, see how this is going to impact your planning cycle. So, like I said, it's probably a good year to two years before we see something precipitate out. And I'm focusing on AID and DOD because that, to me, is kind of where the rubber meets the road because you've got a civilian agency that's tasked with coordinating with U .N. agencies, World Health Organization, World Food Program, but not limited to those people, UNOCHO and others.
00:16:12 SPEAKER_00
civilian agency
00:16:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
And now you're saying, OK, take the strategic, operational and tactical, that compression that I talked about. real -time information to be fed into this so that the commander has as much time and space, and we're talking about now instead of days, we're talking about hours, to make a decision on what ordinance gets dropped where and to what effect. And I'm asking you, do you think non -kinetic was as utilized in 2017 as it could have been?
00:16:45 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Definitely not. Right. And now looking at adding competition into the continuum in the range of military operations. where we're going to be the majority of the time. What's your rounds to fire in competition? Well, they're not lethal, right? Yep. Because except for some soft action against very select targets and some denied activities, it's not going to be acceptable to go in there and killing people and breaking things. Yep. That's not how you convince folks to come to your coalition. So absolutely, there's a lot of work to be done and we didn't do enough there. What we did do got criticized by Rand and others, at least in some cases. And some of that criticism was legitimate. So there's, I think, a lot more work that can be done there.
00:17:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. And you, when it comes down to this multinational land component commander concept, I can't even begin to wrap my head around. My head was spinning, as you were describing, because it's just distributed operations. Right. Land -based, as opposed to maritime -based. It's the same problem set, like rail gauges. With a lot more people.
00:17:50 ANDREW GONZALEZ
With a lot more people. There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.
00:17:51 BRIAN HANCOCK
There aren't as many people out. With a lot more people.
00:17:53 ANDREW GONZALEZ
in the ocean when you're doing distributed maritime operations, right?
00:17:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
And if the balloon goes up, we do have limited ability while the air is uncontested and while the seas are uncontested to get civilians away.
00:18:06 ANDREW GONZALEZ
We have a few minutes left. I'd kind of like to close up by returning to some of the innovation that the Marine Corps has been doing in the last several years. You've talked a bit about the 17XX MOS. Some things we haven't talked as much about are the development and utilization of the Marine Expeditionary Force Information Groups, the MIGs, and the deployment of the Tactical Assault Kit. Can you tell the audience a little bit about those developments?
00:18:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
The MIG is really focused on PSYOPs, Comstrat, and MISO. They're excellent at what they do. We do have some OneMeth integration between CA and Comstrat, obviously, for BK25 with respect to their narratives and our public affairs guidance that's going to be issued. And it's going to be very similar to BK24 from what I'm hearing. So again, we don't want to spend a lot of time reinventing the wheel on things we don't need to. Let's focus on the things that we really do need to. And that namely are the relationships and the things like tactical assault kit. So it sounds like it's an actual piece of gear, but it's not. It is a common tactical picture in the most reductive sense. But the bottom line is the reason that this is becoming so prolific throughout the DoD is because you can develop. a map support and a common tactical picture that can be fed up to feed a common operational picture very readily because it's very lightweight and it's OS agnostic. And so it's basically just taking over because it is so adaptable. And when it comes down to air component, land component, logistics component in the Marine Corps needing a specific tool set. to help manage information and get that information to the logistics commander. And then the logistics commander can inform the CJA commander. This is the way to do it. So I am asking everyone out there, go to the MCTESA website, Marine Corps Tactical Software Support Activity website. Log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division. And MCTESA has really gone to great lengths to host what's called TechTube. And what it is, is a series of YouTube videos on all of the software that the Marine Corps currently is fueling. All the systems of record and some of the systems that are not of record. Tactical Assault Kit is not currently a program of record, but we're, you know, high speed moving towards that to make it a program of record. So how civil affairs is planning to utilize this. And ideally we get our ducks in a row with respect to data because everybody and their mother wants Starlink. Right. You can only spread that so thin and reserves are not going to be at the top of any list when it comes down to. No. So we have to rely on in -country data, which is doable, but we have to just learning from BK24, we have to get enough data for a long enough period of time to support TAK. Even though it's lightweight, it's like anything else. It's a cell phone. We currently are outfitted with Galaxy S22s. That's how we conduct our KLEs. That's how we do our, you know, our engagements and do our site assessments. And it's all done on this handheld. And now ATAK, the Android version of TAK, Civ, as opposed to Mill, there's two flavors of TAK. Civilian is, you can just go to any download. You can go to the Android store, you can go to the Apple store, download your civilian variant of TAK, and immediately start using it. But if you want to know how to use it, whether it's the civilian or the military variant, just go to MCTISA, the website, you need a CAT card, log in, go to the Warfighter Support Division, and then drill down on the TechTube videos. And you can immediately see just how user -friendly this system is. And so our goal at EarthCAG is to make this an application alongside Martians. So it's already built into the image when we receive our Martians gear, our Galaxy S22s. So we're organizing some training with MCTISA. And this is one of those things where we want to be able to get the army in on this. We want to be able to get the armed forces of the Philippines. There's no constraints on using. the civilian variant of TAK with our host nation partners. So how do you want to know where your people are and what they're doing? This is how we're going to do it. That's how I plan to give our commander a common tactical picture and roll up the multinational joint civil affairs outreach and civil military operations employment in theater. That's how we're going to do it as VATAC.
00:22:23 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Well, you've convinced me. I am going to go take a look at that and I'm excited. Mictissa, here I come. I'm going to take a look at the tactical assault kit. Certainly working at the ASCC, if this looks good, I'll definitely be talking to some of my Army colleagues about that. Thank you for your time today, Top. I really appreciate it. Really appreciate everything you're doing as well as what your colleagues at First CAG have been doing. It's been a fantastic relationship and we're looking forward, I know, certainly at 351 and in other. civil affairs formation to working with you in the future.
00:22:58 BRIAN HANCOCK
Ryan, thank you for leaning into the relationship. I don't know of too many others in the civil affairs community independent of service that have gone to the lengths that you have to bring in new ideas, to take some time to listen and learn from one another and actually get this to be applied because that's the only way that we're going to skin the cat.
00:23:20 ANDREW GONZALEZ
Well said. Thank you also to the audience for joining us for this session. And we'll be putting out some more content from the United States Marine Corps in future sessions.
00:23:32 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field. working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations. Thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, 1CA Podcast.
Sunday Oct 13, 2024
Sunday Oct 13, 2024
Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today, Commander Jörg Grössl from the NATO Civil-Military Cooperation Centre of Excellence will discuss the center’s contribution to the maritime domain.
From research, I found that 80 percent of the world’s population lives near a coast, and 90 percent of world’s trade is carried by ships.
So, we are bringing in Commander Grössl to discuss the CIMIC role in the maritime environment and cooperation with Government and Non-Governmental Organizations to build awareness and mitigate the potential impact of military operations at sea or in the littoral regions.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Music
Afternoon Lounge Jazz - Relaxing Jazz Music for Work & Study
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRyJe-0Uie0
---
Transcript
00:00:01 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we have Commander George Grossel from the NATO Civil -Military Cooperation Center of Excellence, who will discuss the center's contribution to the maritime domain.
00:00:46 JACK GAINES
From research, I found that 80 % of the world's population lives near a seacoast, and 90 % of the world's trade is carried by ships. So it makes sense that we would have a maritime simic type of operation. So Commander Grossel, welcome to the show.
00:01:02 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, thank you. And to add some figures to what you said, we had in 2024, the crisis and the Red Sea, in addition to the Panama Canal drought and the Baltimore Bridge incident, a reduction of container traffic of 80%. We had... 3 ,400 ships in the Suez Canal less than the year before. So that is what we are talking about. It's how the CIMIC can support that and what does that mean for us as a society. That must be a pretty good size impact on the global economy to have that much slowdown in shipping.
00:01:32 JACK GAINES
must be a pretty good size impact on the global economy to have that much slowdown in shipping.
00:01:38 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, true. And approximately 500 ,000 containers waiting in Singapore to be transported because of all those interruptions in sea traffic are causing a delay.
00:01:49 JACK GAINES
Right, because the production doesn't stop just because the sea lanes have slowed down from shipping.
00:01:54 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, true.
00:01:55 JACK GAINES
I remember back at the end of COVID how the Port of Los Angeles had 100, 200 ships in harbor waiting, lined up for unloading, and it was just an enormous mess until everyone finally was able to get back to work and catch up with that delay. Yeah,
00:02:12 JÖRG GRÖSSL
we were never given that motor as that big container vessel. Grounded in the Suez Canal for six days in 2021, that resulted in a backlog of 400 ships and trade loss of almost $60 billion. So that is a mess what we are talking about.
00:02:45 JACK GAINES
defending themselves or prosecuting a conflict.
00:02:49 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, that is the one thing. And a good example was the blockage in Ukraine in 2022 -23 that caused effects even in Africa with the shortage of grains being transported there.
00:03:04 JACK GAINES
I remember North Africa and the Middle East were struggling to get enough grain for the simple breads that they use every day. And it was a real concern here in the United States. Did NATO have concerns about the wheat blockage?
00:03:18 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Well, it was more a UN or a nation's initiative, especially then when we had the agreement arranged by Turkey. But NATO as an organization was not involved in that.
00:03:30 JACK GAINES
Okay. And plus, Ukraine's got a border with Poland, so it could export grain that way into Europe. And Europe has a pretty robust grain agricultural system too, so it probably wasn't as big of an impact.
00:03:44 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, well, it developed to a bigger impact. They compensated it now, but especially at the beginning, it was all based on sea transport. And land transport was basically possible, but not in the same capacity as the sea transport. And they had to make that running via land. They went through Romania to the Mediterranean, things like that. But that was not established at the beginning. And so NATO had to be involved in?
00:04:09 JACK GAINES
so NATO had to be involved in? Deconflicting military and commercial maritime operations and also collaborating?
00:04:16 JÖRG GRÖSSL
NATO nations like Bulgaria, Romania, and Turkey, they had their ships there, but NATO as an organization was at the beginning not involved. That developed then later. But in fact, NATO was not involved into protecting transport or things like that. So it was just putting the picture together and minimized the impacts. With all of the issues with commercial shipping,
00:04:41 JACK GAINES
issues with commercial shipping, grain shortage, how did you work with NATO to deconflict gray hole operations with commercial shipping and ensuring that they didn't get drawn into the conflict between Russia and Ukraine?
00:04:58 JÖRG GRÖSSL
They were basically, they were in the conflict. They were a kind of a bargain. from the Russian side to allow or deny the flow of goods. And that was a clear bargain that they used against Ukraine. And at that time, NATO was not involved because they didn't want to be thrown into the conflict and get into an active part. So it was more like the NATO nation, Turkey as such, who played a role. But the NATO as an organization observed that, but we didn't play an active role in it. Okay.
00:05:33 JACK GAINES
Now, with Turkey being effectively the arbiter between Russia and Ukraine on shipments and security, did what they learned help NATO out with their maritime summit programs?
00:05:47 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Turkey not just played a moderator role, of course. With them owning the choke point of the Boxboroughs and the Marmara Sea, they were also a nation that allowed or denied traffic going through. And so the key message that NATO learned from that was who owns the choke points as the joker in his hands. He who holds the choke points makes the rules. Yeah, exactly. You see that on the other side at the Bob Elman Depp,
00:06:14 JÖRG GRÖSSL
exactly.
00:06:16 JÖRG GRÖSSL
see that on the other side at the Bob Elman Depp, you see that at some other choke points like the Panama Canal, who has control, writes the rules.
00:06:32 JACK GAINES
stop policy or promote policy, and those who run it have enormous power over the lives of the rest of the nations in that region. And we've seen some use by countries to influence that. Iran has used mines in the Straits.
00:06:50 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, absolutely. And we see that at the Bob Ellman debt, the moment where a rather short number of foodies have a severe impact to world economy. Right.
00:07:02 JACK GAINES
And that's been a real struggle on trying not to get sucked into a full conflict with the Houthis in the Red Sea.
00:07:08 JÖRG GRÖSSL
We all know who the Houthis are, that they're a proxy for Iran against Saudi Arabia, Israel -Gaza war, and the Israel -Lebanon conflict that we have at the moment will add some more oil to that fire. Well,
00:07:24 JACK GAINES
and that's the challenge that NATO faces. It's always been a networked organization with multiple nations that can forward foreign policy. And now other countries are starting to become regional powers and are using similar tools and techniques to influence policy in those areas. And so we have to start thinking of Iran, Russia, China as networked organizations. They're not just one country anymore because they've got partners, they've got proxies. Some of them have criminal groups that work as operators on behalf of them, and some have paramilitary groups. So it's a more complex environment for NATO. to work on international rule of law and stability and security.
00:08:06 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yes, absolutely true. But to make that clear, at the moment, NATO is not involved, for example, in operations in the Red Sea. It is only run by NATO Nations or the European Union. The NATO as an organization at the moment is not involved. We are doing other things that have the same importance, for example, in the Baltics, in the Mediterranean. but not in the Red Sea at the moment. Well, tell me about the Baltics. We usually call the Baltics Sea a kind of a swamped field. And sometimes you can walk with dry feet from Germany to Denmark or to Sweden because of that amount of shipping. And of course, you have basically the only ice -free Russian access to the north in the Baltics, but they have to go to the narrow of the Femont Belt and the Catechart in Denmark. You have Kaliningrad in the Baltic. You have St. Petersburg in the Baltic. And of course, in that rather small area, you have a high density of gray ships. You have a high density of white ships. And to have a picture on that is quite challenging. And NATO nations are working together to get a picture of what is going on above the sea.
00:09:25 JACK GAINES
Is that what the NATO Shipping Center does? picture and help coordinate between gray holes and commercial shipping?
00:09:32 JÖRG GRÖSSL
shipping? To some extent, the NATO shipping center is adding to that. But the NATO shipping center has no tools. They have no radar stations. They have no electronic devices. So they just use the picture that they get from the bordering nations. They use the information that they get from the ships that are in the Baltics, for example. condensed that to a picture that they can use to support the merchant shipping. Okay.
00:10:04 JACK GAINES
Explain to me how they support merchant shipping.
00:10:06 JÖRG GRÖSSL
The NATO Shipping Center, it is meant to be the link between the organization of NATO and the merchant shipping community. And basically, they are the point of contact to exchange and to get information, to propagate warnings to the shipping, and to interact with the wide shipping. The NATO Shipping Center as such is a rather small organization, but they have a quite extensive network of reservists that are captains of merchant shipping in their civil life and participate in the NATO Shipping Center when they do their reserve missions. And so they are the connection between the military part and the civil part, like passing information. passing warnings, and try to filter the information that are coming from the civil life and put them into the military.
00:11:01 JACK GAINES
They cover the Baltics. Do they cover the North Atlantic and the Mediterranean as well, or does it go further than that?
00:11:08 JÖRG GRÖSSL
They're covering the Baltics. They're covering the North Sea, the Atlantic to some extent. It always depends on what nations are available if you have them. Like in the Baltics with Germany, Denmark, now Sweden, Finland, and Poland. For example, in the Mediterranean, only the northern part of the Mediterranean is covered by NATO nations and the southern part is not. So your picture that you have there is different than, for example, in the Baltic or in the North Sea.
00:11:37 JACK GAINES
That makes sense. And then, of course, whenever there's a crisis, like that ship grounding in the Suez, then they also probably put some type of focus on that because it's going to impact. shipping coming out of the Baltics in the North Sea?
00:11:50 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Not to that extent, because if there is an incident like that, then there is still the International Maritime Organization with their center in Kuala Lumpur. And they are basically responsible for the civil side of it. So it is not a NATO task to inform the merchant shipping about the civil incidents that took place somewhere. So they have their own organization to some extent. Okay.
00:12:19 JACK GAINES
What was it called again? The International Shipping?
00:12:22 JÖRG GRÖSSL
IMO, India Mike, the International Maritime Organization.
00:12:22 JACK GAINES
IMO,
00:12:26 JACK GAINES
Okay. Do you guys ever partner with them or work with them?
00:12:30 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, we cooperate with them when needed. Let's say it like that. Sure. Because you don't want to get too deep into their business and they don't want to get too deep in yours.
00:12:36 JACK GAINES
into their business and they don't want to get too deep in yours.
00:12:38 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah. And they're acting globally and we are not that much interested in about what is going on off the coast of Chile.
00:12:46 JACK GAINES
But sometimes, I mean, NATO gets pulled into, I mean, they got pulled into Korea. Yeah. Pulled into Iraq. So sometimes it's outside the borders and I'm sure there has to be some cooperation when NATO extends itself beyond.
00:12:59 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah. But that is a case by case basis.
00:13:02 JACK GAINES
Sure. But can you give me your perspective of NATO civil -military cooperation in the maritime domain? What is your role? How do you apply it?
00:13:13 JÖRG GRÖSSL
CIMIC functioning in any domain, but especially counts for the maritime domain. What are the civil factors in my environment? How does this impact my operation? How might I impact the operation of the civil traffic? And we try to de -conflict that or to coordinate that, and if possible, even to cooperate. Do you have an example? If we go to the top, for example, to establish an alliance network to GUT. But you could establish an alliance network to the International Maritime Organization, to other organizations that operate there. There is a number of... civil support given to the Yemen. And this traffic also needs to be de -conflicted with the military operations. And if I go now to the latest version of the AJP 3 .19, which is the NATO publication for CIMIC, it says the maintenance of the freedom of navigation, sea lines of communication, key infrastructure, energy flow, protection of marine resources and environmental safety. all in the interests of national and international security. And it's not just about what is above the water, it's also to some extent what is below the water. For example, who is responsible for protecting an underwater sea cable that is transferring information from the US to Europe and back, but that is owned by a civil company? And that is maybe outside any territorial water, so meaning outside the responsibility of any nation, but is of high importance for commercial, for information sharing and so on. This is yet unsolved because everybody is thinking about it because it has been recognized, especially with the attack on the Nord Stream pipeline or the attack on the telecommunication cable between Estonia, Finland and Sweden. So we discovered that there is an issue, but we're working on that, but do not have a situation so far.
00:15:29 JACK GAINES
And it does help that Russia puts out a story, usually on social media about twice a year, about how the cables are under risk. And boy, we sure could clip them at any time, pal.
00:15:40 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, but we're talking about thousands of cables. So clipping one or even 10 or even 100 will not have a severe impact. It's not that easy to clip them. We are not talking about cutting a wire or something like that. But I think there are possibilities to disrupt this disconnection.
00:16:00 JACK GAINES
Well, it's good that they're thinking about it because the only thing that ships more than maritime is probably information across those lines.
00:16:07 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Definitely. And when we're thinking about that, sometimes information are even more important than solid goods. And it's easier. to fake information or to disrupt the flow of information, then to do that is solid goods. That has been one of the learning factors that we draw from the Ukraine war at the moment. Right. You're a sailor, right? Yeah, that's true. I had some experience on ships, well, for about 15 years or so, and I started in the early 90s. And basically had my first deployment in the early 90s to the Adriatic Sea when we did the blockade and the embargo against the former Yugoslavia. I think the word SIMIC was not even existing at that time. But if you consider it, what we did there by checking the traffic that has gone into the Adriatic Sea, by cooperating with mostly Italian. governmental institutions like the police or the financial police and also passing warnings to the shipping. That was to some extent what we do now under the umbrella of SIMIC, but we did that under a different umbrella. So basically it's ever been there. It was just differently named. I started there. I had some deployments to the Persian Gulf, to the Gulf of Aden. I was deployed often to the Mediterranean. I have been in Djibouti. Sometimes I've stood with my ship in the Gulf of Aden doing anti -piracy operations. And at that time, we have to cooperate with the partnering nations, with the surrounding nations and the institutions there. So basically what we do now when we talk about SIMIC.
00:17:58 JACK GAINES
Right. Here, Ed. Deutschland Naval Officer. That is correct, yes.
00:18:01 JÖRG GRÖSSL
yes. But I started to sail on American ships, so I joined Navy after school, and I was on one of our civil man ship, but that was still a Navy ship, but only there were no soldiers on board of it.
00:18:18 JACK GAINES
Oh, okay. And as a sailor, how did you get interested in airtime Simic?
00:18:25 JÖRG GRÖSSL
That developed over the years. What CIMIC is doing is something that we basically did the whole time. When I was deployed to the Gulf of Aden with my ship, we cooperated, for example, protecting civil shipping, protecting canal in the Gulf of Aden to avoid piracy. We were cooperating with the World Food Programme when they conducted their transports to Somalia ports and avoided. piracy attacks so basically we cooperated with the civil environment of course we integrated the civil picture in our picture that we had and then transferred that to the bigger picture for the whole area so we had the civil factor integration and we also had some civil military integration not under the umbrella of the mic at that time but that made me get interested in that topic and that was then The trigger to say, okay, that could be something that is interesting as well. And basically, in the German Navy, your career ends at your mid -40s because then your chance to be on ships again is rather small. And so you have to look for something different. And for me, that was Simic.
00:19:41 JACK GAINES
That makes sense. Do you have any stories from when you were working operations and you had to deal with piracy or with a shipping issue? something else of that nature.
00:19:53 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, when we were deployed, the Operation Enduring Freedom to the Gulf of Aden. And Enduring Freedom was not at all an anti -piracy operation. It was more the fight against terrorism. And we were employed at the sea part to disrupt drugs, to disrupt traffic of weapons in the Gulf of Aden. But obviously, due to the... The civil situation in Somalia with all the political circumstances, having no government around there, and also the situation due to some overfishing off the coast of Somalia, basically they lost their basis for living. And so they reoriented and found out that piracy could be a good job and they could earn some money with that. And so piracy in that area increased dramatically. And so one of the side effects of the warships being employed there for Operation Enduring Freedom was that they were there as a kind of international call to ships in distress, were also involved in anti -piracy. And for us, that meant we were there. And as soon as a ship called for distress because they were approached by those pirate skiffs. We were there and when the next ship in the vicinity, we tried to help them. Usually that meant that we launched our helicopter and that we tried at high speed to approach those ships. And being a warship as such in the area already had an effect on them. So, of course, they tried to avoid being too close to a warship. And that led to thinking about how can you organize it? that the shipping is not that much affected by piracy. And we were involved in organizing that and we were involved in executing that, that there was a safe corridor established with gray ships being positioned there. And so you had your picture of the civil environment and you had always knew where they are and you were able to have them travel to a corridor. With gray ships protecting them every 20, 30 nautical miles, that dramatically reduced the number of pirate attacks.
00:22:17 JACK GAINES
As the warships were protecting the sea lanes, there was probably people engaging with the populations of the surrounding nations to cooperate with security and presence and transportation.
00:22:30 JÖRG GRÖSSL
In the south, there was Amalia. In the north, there was Yemen. In the northwest, there was Eritrea. The only nation that you could cooperate with was Djibouti. And that led to the point that Djibouti became more and more an interesting point for many nations. And I think it's the only nation where you have a French military base there, an American military base, a Japanese, Chinese, and military from all those nations being there and to have an eye on the shipping that is going on.
00:23:05 JACK GAINES
And you bring that perspective into NATO so that as they write AGP 319 or as they prepare exercises or outreach or training, you bring that in to help color that training so that it has a more personal tone.
00:23:22 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, definitely. And if you exercise as an army unit, you're usually on a military training area and this area is free. But if you're exercising in a naval environment, You're usually exercising in open seas and you have always civil traffic around and you have always air traffic in the area. So you have to live with it or to incorporate that into the exercise. We are in this area and we have that density of shipping. So how do we handle that situation? Because in real life, you have to handle that as well.
00:24:01 JACK GAINES
Well, that's a good thing because in a lot of exercises, people make grand assumptions that they'll have access to ports, access to rail, freedom of the seas. But by actually working exercises in places with sea traffic, you actually have to think about it. You have to actually deal with the reality on the ground. And I think that probably helps commanders better assess logistics and how they can get things from here to there. and apply military strength.
00:24:32 JÖRG GRÖSSL
And it also helps to have, at the joint level, to have the Navy guys think about what impact their operations have ashore, and also for the land commanders, how they have to rely on traffic that is coming overseas. Absolutely. So, do you want to talk a little bit about the NATO school? Yeah. We're the Civic Center of Excellence based in The Hague in the Netherlands, which is good because The Hague is also known as one of the cities where you have a lot of international organizations. So it is an interesting place to be and it's an interesting place to cooperate with the civil environment. We are one of around 30 centers of excellence that exist now. We're basically working for NATO. having two framework nations, which is the Netherlands and Germany. We have some additional nations like Poland, Hungary, Italy. We have three pillars, interoperability and capability, training and education branch, and we have the lessons learned and analysis branch. So we're trying to get information from exercises, from missions, identify lessons learned. try to integrate them in our concept, in our publications, and to train that to the people that are new in the CIMIC world and to integrate that in our training. Overall, we are around 50 people here. And yeah, that's the CIMIC Center of Excellence.
00:26:10 JACK GAINES
Okay. So it sounds like it's a touch operational and academic. How would different forces sign in to get involved?
00:26:19 JÖRG GRÖSSL
I think we have six or seven courses. The staff worker course, where you learn how to work in a multinational or joint environment. We have the higher command course, which is basically the highest level. But we're having courses for the tactical level, for the operational level, and for the strategic level. I don't have the exact number, but yeah, we're quite busy with that.
00:26:46 JACK GAINES
Okay. Well, make sure to send me a link and I'll put it in the show notes in case people are interested in taking a course. Yeah. Do you bring in non -NATO members to attend classes as well?
00:26:56 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yes, we do. We are having people from various nations, non -NATO nations. Of course, at the moment, we have some focus on the Ukraine. We frequently have Ukrainian officers training for us. We had some cooperation. with Jordanian officers, also officers from Austria, for example.
00:27:19 JACK GAINES
That makes a lot of sense.
00:27:20 JÖRG GRÖSSL
So all that putting together under the umbrella of the ACO, the Allied Command of Operations. And on the civil side, we have frequently courses here that are run by, for example, UN OCHA, UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. that are using our capabilities to run a course here. And that, of course, gives us the opportunity to cooperate with them, to coordinate our efforts.
00:27:52 JACK GAINES
I was talking to the military liaison to India out here in D .C., and he was really interested in civil affairs and what we do, and I offered... Hey, you can always come on down to Fort Liberty and we'll give you a tour of what civil affairs training is, what our active duty forces are. But I also mentioned NATO. You guys have a center of excellence if he's ever interested in learning what civil affairs or CIMIC does at the NATO level.
00:28:20 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, and one of our projects that we are constantly running to enhance the interoperability between civil affairs and CIMIC by... exchanging personnel, having CA officers here at the CIMIC Center of Excellence, having people from us be at SWICC for liberty. We are running, for example, three times a year as EMPC, which is the European Mission Preparations Course, where people from our CIMIC Center of Excellence are going to the U .S. and train U .S. Army Reserve officers before they deploy to Europe.
00:28:58 JACK GAINES
Oh, cool. Yeah, that's super important. And the nice thing is, even in working with non -NATO members, is that if they ever have to engage NATO, whether they're European or South American, African, Asian, that gives a sense of commonality so that they have a place to start. So it's not so random that you're getting a call from a payphone saying, hey, by the way, we're doing this and it might impact guys or we need training. It gives interoperability to the external partners or people who just may end up getting involved because of an issue. So that's very helpful.
00:29:37 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, absolutely. And in addition, you may have to look into your register and already have an email address where you can talk to. Okay, cool.
00:29:47 JACK GAINES
Well, that's all I have. Do you have any last comments that you want to throw out there or any last thoughts?
00:29:51 JÖRG GRÖSSL
last thoughts? Just get your still. continuously working on expanding our network. For example, this year we had one of our officers in South Korea and contribute a civil military operation tabletop exercise with the Korean armed forces and the US forces over there. So we have the connection over the Atlantic. I'm frequently part of the NATO shipping working group. That is basically organized by the NATO shipping center and they're expanding their network also to South America. The last time we had personnel from Brazil and Argentina with us. Of course, we are not just working within the CIMIC environment, but we're also cooperating with other centers of excellence like the crisis management and disaster response exercise. The Maritime Security Center of Excellence, the Military Police Center of Excellence, and Military Medicine. There are a lot of them that we are cooperating on on various levels to put that all together in one piece. And let me come to the example of the Ukraine now. We have recently published our study on simic factors to be drawn from the Ukraine war. Of course, other centers of excellence did that as well. In addition, what we also do is try to develop CIMIC. For example, we establish CIMIC analysis and assessment capabilities to improve the understanding of the civil environment and to integrate them in the military picture.
00:31:33 JACK GAINES
Oh, yeah. You guys stay busy.
00:31:36 JÖRG GRÖSSL
Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
00:31:38 JACK GAINES
That's a good thing. It means that your work's important and... You guys have to stay on top of it in order to keep things flowing and the military not having issues. So that's fantastic. Okay, now I'm done. Okay, I'm done too. You have recorded all my thoughts. Oh, good. You can go home for the rest of the day.
Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
Tuesday Oct 08, 2024
Tuesday Oct 08, 2024
Today, Brian Hancock hosts Col. Jeffrey Fiddler to discuss his work helping manage the DOD response to the Gaza relief mission.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to Natalia Lafourcade for the sample of Tú Sí Sabes Quererme (En Manos de Los Macorinos). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABLT6hdgEek
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Transcript
00:00:01 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA podcast. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with a partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock and I will be your host for this session. Colonel Jeffrey Fidler is a civil affairs officer with 34 years, thank you sir, of combined enlisted and commissioned service. He has a master's degree in strategic studies and a master's and bachelor's degrees in criminal justice. On the civilian side, he is a career law enforcement officer. currently employed as a special agent with the Department of Homeland Security. Colonel Fidler, welcome to the show. Great to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me. So let's talk about Gaza. It's a man -made disaster. Of course, natural disasters are on the rise as well. This one happens to be a man -made disaster, and the toll is high. At present, 96 % of the population of the Gaza Strip, which is an estimated 2 .15 million people, are food insecure. Now, you went to that region. You're back. You probably have a view of this from multiple angles. Can you tell us a little bit about the U .S. response to this crisis?
00:01:38 JEFFREY FIDDLER
This was a complex operation. Yeah, no doubt. It involved a joint force across two different combatant commands. So you have Cyprus, which belongs to UCOM, AOR, and then you have Gaza, Israel, which falls under CENTCOM. And you have... IGOs out there, United Nations, UKAID, USAID, Bureau of Humanitarian Assistance, which is the most important one for us when it comes to HA, bringing all those actors, so to speak, together to form a coherent response. Like anything we do in civil affairs, it can be challenging at first.
00:02:15 BRIAN HANCOCK
But it's extra challenging because we're military. Many of these actors you just described... have a little bit of baggage when it comes to military, or they have neutrality requirements like the Red Cross that limits their ability to work with the military. If they don't understand civil affairs and what our role is and the heart we have for humanitarian assistance and disaster relief and our sincere willingness to help, I mean, if we are mistaken for folks who want to take a, you know, shoot them up kind of approach, then that... would not make that an easy group to bring together as a coalition of the willing. There is definitely some baggage from the wars, right? Yeah. There is.
00:02:55 JEFFREY FIDDLER
There is. And we had the constraints. President made a decision. We're not going to have any boots on the ground. We follow orders of soldiers, right? So now you need partners on the back end. One thing the Army's always great at is logistic. So we can get a bunch of aid over there. And there'll be some friction getting it. Because you're dealing with civilian entities and organizations. There's always friction, but that's too easy. Really, the hardest part is once we get it on the beach, who's going to take it from there to deliver it to the people that are hungry? It's not going to be the U .S. military. And it's certainly not going to be really any military because you're dealing with organizations that can't necessarily work with a military organization. So it has to be civilian -led.
00:03:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
-led. And there can be mistakes if military forces of any branch are rolling in there. They may be seen as aggressors or a party to the conflict under the law of war. Very complicated. But getting supplies through there, tough. You're talking, you know, everyone with a gun is going to shake down an aid convoy coming through because that stuff is just worth its weight in gold right now. So you've got that complexity once it hits the beach. And obviously we want the humanitarian assistance to get to the needy who requires that sustenance to continue living. You've got a logistics hub, as I understood it, sitting there in Cyprus that was put together to do all of the loading and preparation. Then you're going out to CENTCOM, crossing a geographic combatant commander's boundary to set up this giant man -made dock amidst threats from some folks to attack this structure in what's kind of amounting to the Wild West. And then we have ARSEN, formerly Third Army in World War II. who's in charge of this mission. And then we have all these partners in the mix. You're being very humble, I think, but this sounds like a tough coalition to put together and get them all to work into a common purpose.
00:04:52 JEFFREY FIDDLER
It's not easy. Yeah. And I'll touch on that. I'm going to geek out for a second for all of our real civil affairs people. I'm going to talk about the Bureau of Humanitarian Assistance. Yeah, BHA.
00:04:58 BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm going to talk
00:05:00 SPEAKER_00
Yeah, BHA.
00:05:02 JEFFREY FIDDLER
So you need a MITAM to get the HA. You need a consignee. in Cyprus to receive the goods. And that's easy.
00:05:10 BRIAN HANCOCK
The MITAB is a mission tasking matrix, kind of like a request from the host nation that you're providing support to saying, we need this type of thing here, there, which gets validated and vetted by the military.
00:05:23 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah. And it allows the DOD to respond, to actually use a piece of equipment to bring non -DOD articles or something to somewhere else. So the DOD doesn't get the bill. So you need a consignee from my team on both ends. The hard part was, who's that consignee going to be? It's a clear chain of custody. It's a requirement. Absolutely. So the World Food Program stepped up to the plate. But back to one of your earlier points of not working with the military, and look, that's their charter. Us and the military might hate it, but that's just the way it is. And WFP made it quite clear there's not going to be a military flavor to this when they receive the goods over there. And that's important to understand. So really bringing in everybody so that we could all get on the same shoot of music.
00:05:43 BRIAN HANCOCK
a clear chain of custody. It's a requirement.
00:06:06 JEFFREY FIDDLER
bringing in everybody so that we could all get on the same shoot of music. One of the things that I'm proudest of, what we did for civil affairs is helping set up a multinational coordination center with the Cypriots. So when we first started it, there might've been 10 people at the table, Brian. By the time we left her at the height of the operation, it was about 50 people in a room from all these various organizations. And we made sure that the Cypriots were in the lead. It's their nation. Yeah, yeah. Sovereign nation. Yeah. Sovereign nation, which is a whole other point. And we could do a whole other podcast on that about how civil affairs operates over in Yukon. But Cypriots are in the lead. We're there to support them and their efforts. And it was something as simple as, you know, Major Alan Diggertullo, my CPI chief, he was down there with me. One of the things we did with Alan was he would liaison with the Cypriots,
00:06:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
Sovereign nation.
00:06:56 JEFFREY FIDDLER
create a PowerPoint slide of... talking points that we were going to discuss during the MNCC. And that might not seem like a big deal to members of the audience out there that are Army. But other militaries, they don't necessarily do that. We weren't trying to insert ourselves. We were just trying to come to a middle ground where everybody could have a common understanding of where we were going. Trying to help facilitate. Yeah, exactly. So a lot of the friction points were wicked out during the MNCC. And then once a week, we would host a multinational decision board. where we would bring in senior leaders. So I'm talking one -star admirals all the way up to four -star generals in the army, plus the ambassadors. So you have ambassador level ranked from the Cypriots, other countries that are visiting, and the United States there, where if we hit a roadblock where we couldn't get something done during the MNCC, which is really like a working group, then you bring in the senior leaders for them to make a decision or something for them to action. So I think that's what kind of lessened some of the friction that we had.
00:07:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
that we had. Yeah. Sometimes that can increase, too, when you have different equities, different political equities, different concerns coming together. And, of course, for the military, it's usually pretty short -term involvement in HADR. So you hit a couple of good roadblocks, and that could really derail the mission. And it's awesome to hear that you guys had to figure out a process and that apparently it largely worked to keep that moving forward and get that aid to the people who desperately needed it.
00:08:22 JEFFREY FIDDLER
needed it. It wasn't easy, but there was mistakes made along the way,
00:08:26 BRIAN HANCOCK
the way, for sure. Right. Mistakes don't define us. What we learn from them and how we pick up and carry on maybe does, but mistakes don't necessarily define us. Within the context of that, for the audience, we've kind of talked a lot about the Gaza mission. What was your specific role that you were assigned to?
00:08:44 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Sure. And this goes back to, like we talked about a little while ago. You got to be aggressive, figure it out. Like I talked about, Hilda Fernandez, you know, came down to the Pentagon to do a job. She didn't necessarily end up doing that job, but she did what was required to do as a civil affairs officer. So my job was to go down there and to be the U .S. Army, Europe, and Africa, Army element, OIC, and just strictly focus on Army -related issues to support the mission. That completely morphed as soon as I got there, and we fell under a joint task force. And there was a need for a strong civil affairs presence in the MNCC and operations in general and civil knowledge integration. So we immediately shifted gears. I ended up becoming the de facto XO of the JTF. So I was dual -hatted as the senior civil affairs officer for the operation and the XO. And Major DeGratulo was the CKI chief and one of the operations officers for the JTF. So it just turned into that and it worked for us. Okay.
00:09:46 BRIAN HANCOCK
Well, you brought some handpicked team members there, so I'm not surprised that they were able to adapt. I think that's one thing that really defines us as civil affairs professionals is that we're very adaptable in different environments. We don't bring just like one tool to the fight.
00:09:59 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Absolutely. I sometimes see that culture out there where it's like, hey, we're going to find a way to know. And one of the things that I appreciate about civil affairs, most of us have a mindset of let's find a way to yes and figure out the problem. For one example, both Alan and I went out to sea with the French Navy. That's not something I ever saw myself doing in civil affairs, but they wanted a liaison officer on the French warship to deliver aid. So we actually went within four miles of the shore of Gaza. And that was just to make sure the French Navy was comfortable, that they were able to talk to the U .S. Navy. They had an American officer on board. And, you know, we'd pull in, deliver the aid, and then leave. Did you do that under a French flag or were you international?
00:10:39 BRIAN HANCOCK
under a French flag or were you international? French flag. Sometimes they re -flag depending on the mission. So that's interesting. But you know, others in our community who might be involved in defense support to civil authorities, DISCA or humanitarian assistance disaster reef, HADR, what were some of the obstacles that you encountered in your mission in Gaza and how did you overcome them? Sure.
00:11:02 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Like I said earlier, the friction points, that was difficult at times. And you said it earlier, Brian, there are folks that have been doing this for 20, 30 years in the civilian world. I think baggage is the wrong word. I'm going to say scar tissue. And you need to recognize that. If you see that, you know, you as the civil affairs officers, you're going to take part in this and kind of, if you're going to take a leading role to make this thing work, you need to recognize that and allay their fears that you're going to do everything you can to protect the process that they use. They're not showing up to be difficult. They have a process like BHA. They have a process for MITAM. You don't want to go to the left or right of that because that's the way that they do their business. And I think it's one of our jobs as civil affairs to make sure that our military understands that process so that eventually the two can come to a way to yes of how we're going to get something across the finish line.
00:11:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, that's awesome. In civil affairs, we get access to some specialty training like the Jayhawk, the Joint Humanitarian Assistance Operations Course. the hard course. And I'm not sure that the larger force, especially in the combat arms, that they necessarily broaden with these kinds of things. But it's really important when we're working for BHA, that's always in a support role. And if we're doing DISCA, again, always in a support role, we may feel we're large and in charge, but one, we're not because of the nature of the mission. And two, we're operating either the U .S. or abroad. And in this case, in a well -developed nation, that's sovereign. We also have some subordination to the host nation that we have to follow. And there are extra steps and things that we have to do here. But if we don't want to generate an international incident, you know, we have to take that seriously. And I think we're fortunate that we have some additional training, but I'm not sure everyone in DOD does. No, I don't think so.
00:12:50 JEFFREY FIDDLER
don't think so. I think there's, like you mentioned, the Jayhawk course, right? I mean, and then, Brian, if we really want to go down a rabbit hole, we could talk about NATO when it comes to CEMEC as a joint function. So we understand it, but we train in the G5s of the world or the G35s. People need to understand that. It's not like operating in Kuwait or Iraq as civil affairs operations. The way I look at it, we do CEMIC over here. And they should. And we have to work by with them through our CEMIC partners. But back to Cyprus, I would say the country, they get the ultimate vote. It's their country, their sovereign nation. And then you also have... People sometimes forget, you know, the U .S. ambassador has a huge vote. Yeah, he's a four -star. Yeah. For Cyprus, Ambassador Fisher worked with the ambassador. We had meetings with her a couple of times. She has a huge vote on what goes on and how it does go on. And we get it, right, as civil affairs. But if you don't operate in that kind of environment a lot, it can be challenging. And again, I go back to the Multinational Coordination Center, Multinational Decision Board. where you get all those stakeholders in the same room, that's where you can really make some money on that. And I'd be remiss of saying this. We had civil affairs folks from CENTCOM that actually came out from Kuwait. So Lieutenant Colonel Jeff Goulet, he showed up with his team and we worked very close together, Jeff and I. Great officer, worked really hard. So he was a big factor in our success out there. And I know everybody's read stuff in the paper. They can see the stats of what was delivered. When we talked about the challenges, one thing that we haven't mentioned is the weather. Right. So the weather gets a vote. Sea state. Yep. The sea state. Yep. It gets a vote. So, I mean, how many briefings have we been to, you and I, where the G2 gets up and speaks weather and everybody's half asleep, right? I've been the G2 delivering it and half asleep. So you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. So now finally the G2 can deliver a weather of what that actually matters. It's like right then and there. But in seriousness, you know, I'm not going to get into the particulars of what the Trident Pier can handle.
00:14:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
you know what I'm talking about, right? Yeah. So now finally
00:14:49 JEFFREY FIDDLER
But if you go over a certain sea state, it's not going to work. Right. It's like the Mulberry bases that we built as temporary ports after the Normandy landing,
00:14:53 BRIAN HANCOCK
Mulberry bases that we built as temporary ports after the Normandy landing, right? And one of them was sunk. Mulberry 8 is completely sunk. You saw the stuff in open source.
00:15:02 JEFFREY FIDDLER
saw the stuff in open source. We lost part of the Trident Pier. It's going to happen. You know, and commanders take risk, right? They're going to decide how they're going to push it and things happen. But we did get some HA across the pier. It just wasn't as much as we'd all like. A very tough problem set.
00:15:18 BRIAN HANCOCK
We hope that that resolves, you know, with minimal loss of life as soon as this is practicable. We've talked about some of the challenges, and what are some of the successes that you had in that mission, other than overcoming sunk peers and things like that?
00:15:32 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I think the big success for civil affairs was really the Multinational Coordination Center. And the relationships that we built with the Cypriots, they were just fabulous. So we had a full bird colonel out there, Colonel Sangridis. He's a lead for the Cypriots for this problem set. So we talked every morning. A good success that we had with that was he didn't have an aide. So we took a Marine Corps lieutenant, because this is all a joint, and he sat right next to the colonel from Cyprus, and he did all of his updates on the slide forum. He invited that Marine over his house to have dinner. They became very close, and it really helped move things along.
00:16:11 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. Relationships matter. Relationships do matter. And that was a sustained issue. You can't be issuing a demarche every time you want something done.
00:16:18 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And he was the center of gravity. So he had access to emails from other countries that are coming in regarding HA that we were never going to be privy to. Again, this isn't a US -led operation. Cypriots are in the lead. We're in a supporting role. USAID was the ported. So those relationship building, the LNOs, things like that, that was successful. But the multinational center, that was really where we made our money.
00:16:44 BRIAN HANCOCK
All right. I'm going to ask you from the position of hindsight, what are some of the potential lessons learned from what we did? And in your opinion, the conflict continues and the need is still there. What do you think our next step should be?
00:16:59 JEFFREY FIDDLER
That's a tough one because we know the tried and peer doesn't exist anymore. I could see it transitioning into civilian. And I know that there was some talk about that, where you still bring in the humanitarian assistance to Cyprus, and then you put on civilian ships and you deliver it, whether it's to the port of Ashdod, or they build a temporary pier. I don't know if you remember this central kitchen. I do. They lost some people to fire. That was tough. That was a - Good people. You know, loss of life, good people, but a setback as well. That slowed down the whole process, and rightfully so, I get it. But they had built a temporary pier. near where we were before we even put in the Trident Pier. So that's how they were delivering food. So I think something like that might be a way. And I think really it's more political than military. I mean, I think the numbers wouldn't lie, Brian, that you can get more aid across the land border than could on a Trident Pier or whether you're doing airdrops. And what the DOD did between coming across the land border, airdrops, and we had the Trident Pier up and running, that was the most that we can physically do at the time.
00:17:24 BRIAN HANCOCK
was tough. That was a - Good people. You know, loss of life, good people, but a
00:18:04 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. And we don't have the math fully in front of us, but it is highly probable from a statistics point of view that there are some people who are now alive who may not have been alive if you and your team hadn't done this mission with the other partners. And yeah, a good news mission overall, of course, a tough topic.
00:18:22 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah. And I think history repeats itself. So all those young CAO officers and NCOs that might be listening, this is something that you might see in your career.
00:18:30 BRIAN HANCOCK
And there'll be tough decisions that had to be made. By seeing some of the quality of some of the folks we have coming through the CA pipeline, I think they're going to be ready to make them. Yeah, absolutely. You finished the Gaza mission. Your tour to USARAF is coming to an end. What is next in the life of Colonel Jeffrey Fidler?
00:18:49 JEFFREY FIDDLER
So I was hired to be the J -9 for Security Assistance Group Ukraine. Great main effort here. So that's one piece of the puzzle. To take the tour, it's a mobilization. I'll need an MRD extension. So that paperwork is going to go in. If not, maybe I'll be the J9. Get an age extension. You're younger than me.
00:19:08 BRIAN HANCOCK
younger than me. I don't know. No, no, no. You're younger than me. If you can't get an age extension. Oh, it's a MRD, years of service. I'm going to have to wonder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But still, you're healthy. You're young.
00:19:16 JEFFREY FIDDLER
going to have to
00:19:21 JEFFREY FIDDLER
We'll see what happens. But we've been working with Ukraine Simic for some time now. We've also had our 38 golfs involved in the past on that. So I think we're on our fifth iteration of helping train Ukrainian Simic. And that's in conjunction with CJ Soda, your soft CA, so to speak. They're in the lead on that, but there is some expertise that we have in Compo 3.
00:19:47 BRIAN HANCOCK
You know, when we look at their functional specialty teams, not the same. We have different expertise with our golfs and our other capabilities. And soft are amazing, but there's only so many of them. So if you have a sustained function, and SIMIC as a joint function is something you have to always be doing, whether you're in conflict, crisis, or competition, right? So I would think that there would be a steady demand signal to augment them.
00:20:12 JEFFREY FIDDLER
There is. 38 golfs, like I said, Brian, we already sent some of those over. We also support one of their other programs is their medical training. So this gets into the whole trimmer piece. Ukrainian Simic, we teach them on first aid. We actually sent a full bird doctor from the KCOM. It was like one of the lead surgeons in New York City. So Ukraine Simic folks were just floored that this level of expertise is coming. But so were our soft folks. They were like, we want more like that. Just keep on sending more. They can't grow that.
00:20:42 BRIAN HANCOCK
that. They can't grow that.
00:20:42 JEFFREY FIDDLER
that. They can't grow that. And then with the 38 Golfs coming in with their background, whether it's infrastructure, governance. Skill rich. Super skill rich. And they came out. It's gotten so much to the point where they're actually paying for our travel, for Compo 3 to travel from the United States to wherever the training area is because they see value in what Compo 3 brings to the table. And I got to give a shout out to Colonel Tony Baja, retired. That's how he envisioned it. We executed it. Didn't take the foot off the gas pedal. Tony's like, hey, I think this is kind of the way we should go. And I said, yeah, that makes sense to me. And then we just drove it home for him. Awesome.
00:21:18 BRIAN HANCOCK
That worked out really well. And I myself might someday support one of your CIMIC trainings and some of the other folks out there. Great opportunity to work with some amazing people doing good things. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. Do you have any final remarks for the audience you want to pass on?
00:21:35 JEFFREY FIDDLER
No, it was great to be here. Stay on top of your PME. I'm going to throw my old Brigade Commander hat on for a minute. Oh, yeah. There's never a good time to do ILE, ever. So as soon as you get promoted, yeah, you just got to get it done.
00:21:49 BRIAN HANCOCK
Bite the bullet and go. High grade won't get you promoted in ILE, but if you don't do it, you will definitely not be promoted. So it's important.
00:21:57 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I have an old saying, no major left behind, but there are lieutenant colonels left behind if you don't get ILE done. That's for sure.
00:22:04 BRIAN HANCOCK
for sure. All right. Thank you for your time, sir. Really appreciate it. And that's a wrap. All right. Great. Thanks, Brian.
00:22:12 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. Stay tuned for more great episodes. 1CA Podcast.
Tuesday Oct 01, 2024
Tuesday Oct 01, 2024
In this episode, Mariah Yager is interviewing David Luna and Jack Gaines as they discuss how adversaries use criminality to achieve their foreign policy goals while removing U.S. influence and capability.
The interview is based on a presentation at SMA (Strategic Multilayer Assessment), an online Pentagon forum. Link to the show and resources: https://nsiteam.com/smaspeakerseries_22august2024/
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
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Special thanks to the Epidemic Blues channel for the sample of Peter Crosby - Jailhouse Blues. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuyc-bIjQ10
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Transcript
00:00:06 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast, a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:39 MARIAH YAGER
Hi, everyone. I'm Mariah Yeager, and welcome to today's guest, David Luna, the founder of International Coalition Against Illicit Economies. Prior to ICAIE, David Luna was the Senior Director for International Security and Diplomacy at the State Department's Bureau of International Narcotics and Law Enforcement. He focused on strengthening international cooperation and fighting threat to illicit networks. And David also helped launch the Organization for Economic Coordination and Development Task Force on Countering Illicit Trade. But with that, Mr. Luna, I'd like to hand the floor over to you.
00:01:11 DAVID LUNA
Thank you very much Mariah and Jack. It is great to be here to participate about the radar warfare in grey zones related to China and Russia, manipulating instability through co -option and coercive economics, including by weaponizing corruption. including election interference, as Secretary Blinken has underscored in recent months, elicit financial flows to support pro -authoritarian candidates that advance malign influence and that exploit governance gaps to secure friendly policies, while harming our U .S. national interests. This also includes the leveraging of criminal networks, proxies, and professional enablers. to advance policies to construct a multipolar world, exploiting grey zones in the process from small islands in the Asia -Pacific region to fragile democracies in Latin America, Africa, and Southeast Europe. The United States remains unprepared for irregular warfare. China, Iran, and Russia continue to seek to undercut U .S. influence. They degrade American relationships with key allies and partners. and to exploit the global environment to their advantage, including by exploiting instruments of competition, strategic corruption, blind influence operations, terrorism, sabotage, and subversion through asymmetrical and clandestine efforts. And so we can dictate the costs related to these hostile actions by effectively prosecuting the strategic use of corruption. and predatory criminality by adversaries across race zones to ensure that democracy reigns over authoritarianism. Greaterly the rule of law and international -based systems must outlive targeted chaos, abversion, and malign influence. I think that we must use such current and horizontal threats to repressive threat convergence so that we can develop actional responses to counter illegality. that is corroding the rule of law and interconnected with the threats networks. Through this framework, I firmly believe that we can better help DOD, the intelligence community, the interagency community, our combatant commanders, and our warfighters to understand the threat and to equip them with pragmatic resource sustain, irregular warfare tools, and anti -crime capabilities. The Department of Defense and our interagency partners to develop more dynamic NASA security military strategies and to get ahead of the game in planning for future irregular warfare campaigns, using these innovative capabilities to expand the competitive space to the U .S. advantage of their allies. A few months ago, I had the distinct pleasure of delivering the keynote address at a meeting hosted by the Department of Defense. Office for Special Operations, as well as the Cali Narcotics and Cali Transnational Organized Crime Program. At that time, I focused more on criminal networks, and I would like to expand on that discussion. I've been focusing more on the policy actions that I believe are needed and that must be integrated into greater warfare strategies. Last month, the Office of the Director for National Intelligence released a brief report. entitled Conflict and the Gray Zones, highlighting non -relations, will increasingly feature an array of hostile gray zones activities. As China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia seek to challenge the United States and to gain advantage over other countries through deliberate campaigns while also trying to avoid war. These gray zones are more often than unexploited in places where corruption thrives. Criminals finance chaos, impunity, and insecurity. So I will focus again on some of these reasons to give you a better understanding how some of these adversaries are leveraging illicit criminal activities, using climate grids, using organized criminals, and other proxies to promote authoritarianism and weaken democracies. erode institutions and undermine the rule of law and global order. Russia and Iran and China continually work to gain access and gain control over strategic locations, critical minerals, ports, and other infrastructure, with the aim of becoming board operating bases for their military forces and intelligence agencies. The islands in the Pacific Rim have become a challenge in recent years that has corroded American influence in these countries and, of course, more globally. We continue to work across sectors with cutting edge research to help map these threat networks, to help the United States and its allies to really understand today's threat environment, to see the interconnections of illicit vectors. to pinpoint nodes of crime convergence, identify those gray zones that are being exploited by some of these malign state actors, and to track illicit rude supply chains and illicit financial flows that enable authoritarians to weaken democracies. So we hope that these challenges or relays will drive further analyses and investigations to disrupt illicit threat networks and their...
00:07:10 MARIAH YAGER
Hey, David, thank you so much. The Criminality Index, how were those calculated? How did that data come together?
00:07:19 DAVID LUNA
This is the Organized Crime Index that was developed by the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organized Crime. Without getting too much in the weeds of their methodology, they do look at various baskets of data sets from different international organizations. different governments to share more of their methodology.
00:07:41 MARIAH YAGER
And on that, I did post your white paper that you mentioned, and then these slides and your remarks, so everyone can look through the different sources. I mean, there's just some great resources there, from ACLED to some of the track stuff, so I will get those available.
00:07:57 DAVID LUNA
And we also emphasize that despite many successes within the law enforcement community, Global criminality and corruption has expanded greatly today compared to even a decade ago. Illicit entrepreneurial networks collectively continue to exploit the lucrative illicit economies, which, according to some estimates, are between 7 % to 15 % of the world's economy, or up to $20 trillion a year. They really go towards criminal networks. and they contribute to expanding these illicit economies. $20 trillion a year, that is staggering. Equally concerning, adversaries such as Russia, China, Iran, underwrite armed conflicts and malign operations against Western democracies and free markets. Among the reason local conflicts no longer end is that they are supported by illicit threat networks. For example, paramilitary groups supported by criminal opportunists, profit -driven, illicit companies who exploit conflict, and instability to expand criminal economies. In fact, rampant corruption and the violence wrought by organized criminals and terrorist networks help to soften the conditions for insecurity that are exploited to weaken other fragile governments. The state capture aided by criminality and strategic use of corruption results in democracies sliding into optocracies and through proxies helped to start and expand conflicts of regional insecurity. For example, if we look at Russia's Wagner group, who had assisted in a series of coups in Africa that had brought some lundas to power or enabled further optocracies to raid. In exchange, Proxies now rod global high -value commodities in those countries and allow for autocrats to remain in power. In the Central African Republic, Wagner's successors continue to employ active measures to disrupt African efforts to move their countries from violent conflict to stability by moving money and weapons around the continent through an intricate web of shell companies and through criminal networks that specialize in illicit trafficking and legal trading. and sanctions busting. What results is chaos, furthering the corruptive influence of extremist insurgencies in many cases, or regime protection of authoritarians who have faced sanctions and condemnations, including for their human rights abuses. Some of the dirty money that is derived by Russian mercenaries in Africa have helped Russia bypass global sanctions to fund its war in Ukraine, or to support political upheavals. paramilitary misadventures in the Middle East, the Balkans, and forward Soviet republics. Inland America, Russian proxies are selling some of the more advanced surveillance technologies to state and non -state actors across the hemisphere, greatly enhancing their ability to monitor and attack political enemies, law enforcement, officials, anyone else that they perceive as a threat. And as many experts correctly pointed out, Russia remains a criminalized state, led by a ruthless and thugish godfather. In fact, the Russian mafia is an extension of the Putin regime in advancing Russia's national interests overseas, and as an instrument of power operating in the shadows, elicit facilitators, super -fixers to other criminal networks. Russian cybercriminals not only penetrate businesses, it steals. trade secrets and bonds, but also to launch cyberattacks against enemies of the Gremlin. The Siloviki, too, may be asked to engage in kidnappings or assassinations on behalf of their masters in Moscow. Finally, one last point related to Russia. While annexation of Crimea and the recent invasion of Ukraine have significantly affected regionalized economies, Russian criminal networks continue to aid Russian intelligence and special forces in smuggling needed weapons and technology. Obviously, this undermines Western sanctions and transport bans for highly sought consumer goods and helps to londer the assets of Russian countergrants and oligarchs in places like Dubai, London, New York, and Western capitals. Now let me focus for a few minutes on the bigger threat. China. According to FBI Director Christopher Wray, China has become the biggest threat to our national security and to the homeland. This is not because of the global ambitions and active involvement of transnational crimes, but also through political interference operations. China's involvement in expanding illicit economies around the world has a triple whammy effect. Yet, first of all, it increases tremendous illicit wealth. hurts U .S. national security, American competitiveness, and innovation. Finances showing this ambition to become the predominant superpower by 2049. President Xi has openly stated, he would like China to become that predominant power. Through our research and through other institutions like the Terrorism Transnational Crime and Corruption Center, the CCP has leveraged corruption, illicit markets, Predatory crime to become the world's largest player in almost every sector of transnational crime, including counterfeits, trafficking of weapons, humans, wildlife, illegally harvest timber, fish, natural resources, the theft of IP, and trade secrets, illicit tobacco, organ harvesting, and other crimes. Several trillion U .S. dollars in the list of proceeds every year are generated from productive fences for money laundering that touch China's jurisdictions and markets and are often used to finance China's authoritarian regime. According to our ICAO research, China may very well be the biggest money laundering hub in the world. So, on so many fronts, China poses a serious geopolitical and organized criminal threat. Given its proximity to make money on crime and laundering dirty monies for drug cartels or other counterparts, terrorists, sanctioned rogue states, and other pariahs, China has also helped Russia, Iran, and others evade international sanctions, including on oil exports. threats will continue to garner more attention across different illicit industries driven by China as they continue to expand across the developing world. In Latin America and in Panama, for example, China is leveraging bribery of government officials to win concessions to control the port and other critical infrastructure along the Panama Canal. Alarmingly, China already controls or operates in more than 40 ports across Latin America. In many of these ports, the Chinese triads are also quite active. As the former Salcom commander testified a few years ago, China continues to be the number one underwriter for the Mexican drug cartels and other criminal networks. In Venezuela, China is firmly supported to corrupt the Jura regime. not only because of its access and investment in the oil sector, but because it truly is a strategic partner to counter American influence. If we look at Canada in recent years, it has become a crime convergence zone, a foreign operation pump for some of the most notorious criminal networks, including for the Mexican cartels, the Chinese syndicates, and for Hezbollah financial. If we were to look at the so -called CCP police stations in North America, as certain investigative journalists have done in recent months, we have a nexus of PRC intelligence services operators converging with local Chinese triads, often with syndicates. Such police stations are physically and mentally projecting Beijing's political power. They are connected to... underground, casinos, human trafficking, and other illicit trade. And again, find the uses of triads to foment insecurity and illegality of democracies, including through diasporic communities. Through economic coercion, China is also buying highlands across the Caribbean, for example, in Antigua and Barbuda, building special economic zones, and likely planning to use these commercial outposts for military purposes. As we know, in the U .S. Indo -Pacific Command Theater, BRC efforts have destabilized, for example, the Solomon Islands, undermined democracy in the northern Mariana Islands and other Pacific Rim Islands. As democracy weakens across the Pacific Rim Islands, China pounces and expands its influence through strategic corruption to advance their multi -polar agenda. We see the Chinese with a lot of influence as well in Myanmar as they work with the junta to build fentanyl factories, which again helps to fund more global online influence for CCP Inc. And China continues to build military bases on several islands, for example in the spread of the islands in the south, which contravene international law. These opposed bases and airfields continue to expand the offensive capability of China beyond their continental shores to gain control over disputed territories. In fact, one can argue that China's Belt and Road Initiative, the BRI, is intended to finance economic, trade, and military expansion all around the world, and as a result of the BRI. No -ling sectocrats continue to just simply align their pockets and continue to provide China with the global footprint to again expand their multi -polar agenda. If you were to overlay the BRI with some of these jurisdictions with high corruption, with democracy, as well as organized crime, you see that the Chinese tribes are always behind the expansion policies of China. So it's this confluence of social security interests. We're ensuring that Russia and Iran continue to strengthen intelligence, military ties to weak and democratic institutions, expand illicit economies, and bolster autocratic governance around the world.
00:19:05 MARIAH YAGER
What do you see as the most promising way forward? Specifically, do you see as a significant part of the solution, implementation of the 2023? DoD's strategy for operations in the information environment, which argues for a whole of government's integrated campaign across the competition continuum, which includes the gray zone.
00:19:25 DAVID LUNA
Yeah, I think it's all of that, frankly. I do think we need our intelligence community needs to really look more closely these overlays as well. To be able to articulate the interconnections, corruption, money, laundry, crime. We got to understand a panorama to be able to breathe the U .S. Congress to have more resources, right? It is about more resources to build capacities as well. Economic development, you know, and again, I mentioned the G7 initiative, but I don't think it's been funded. I could be wrong, but not more than 10, 15%. Whereas China is investing hundreds of billions of dollars all over the world. Not only through the strategic use of corruption and bribing collective grads, but in developing some of their critical infrastructure, which, again, they're able to have access and control not only for themselves, but other aligned authoritarian guard guards and their criminal network proxies. So resources, I think, is very important. But we need to get Congress to really see these interconnections a little bit more strategically. So what do we do about this? We must innovate, no doubt. We must ensure a more anticipatory approach. So we need to really underscore the importance of sharing threat intelligence in a timely manner to mitigate these harms. We must also make sure that we devote the requisite investments necessary to counter these collective transnational security networks. We might want to consider... Developing an interagency or even a Department of Defense of regular warfare special action teams to counter malign influence and strategic transnational threats so that we can stabilize and countering such malign influence. These could be rapid response strike forces. Again, there will be developed to investigate and prosecute these webs of foreign bribery, strategic corruption, and cross -border criminality to ensure that we reinforce the rule of law in our partner nations. In closing these data sets and overlaying, we do begin to see the interconnections of various threats. I think it does become very important. to develop these more innovative irregular warfare frameworks to counter strategic corruption and criminality.
00:22:02 MARIAH YAGER
Assuming that local and national level law enforcement and regulatory agencies are the first line of detection and defense against these gray zone illicit activities, how might we better integrate those to get a better picture of the totality of the methods to disrupt those activities?
00:22:19 DAVID LUNA
Our U .S. embassies, a lot of them have law enforcement working groups. I mentioned the need for these special action teams to counter malign influence and strategic use of corruption as well by helping our partners in some of these nations to be able to investigate not only corruption, but to prosecute, to be able to track the corrupt payments that they receive to enable China, for example, to have more access and control. And then Jack gave this a good opportunity to talk a little bit more about an idea that we had been brainstorming with others on these special action teams. Jack?
00:23:00 JACK GAINES
I'm here. The white paper describes a minimum viable product for how the National Guard and the service reserves can further help U .S. and partner nation law enforcement counter adversaries and malign competitors to work to diminish U .S. and international rule of law and advance their nation's foreign policy goals. builds off of current Title 10 and 32 operations to support law enforcement. It just expands their reach and capability. The paper highlights areas where the Guard and Reserve could bring in professional specialties to expand law enforcement operations. Everything from investigations to prosecutions by creating special action teams that work directly for a law enforcement lead. It's very similar to a law enforcement special supervisory agent working at an agency, having teams of investigators and agents working on different cases. But in this scenario, the law enforcement lead would have guard and reserve teams built to support the investigations. And that would be in helping our partners and allies in the U .S. territories defend against state -sponsored criminality. For example, if an agent needs a financial fraud investigator or multiple investigators, The Guard and Reserve have them. An agent needs building evidence packets. Same thing. We have specialists that do that. These skills are available all the way after bringing in federal judges and attorney generals who can consult on judicial processes or even coordinate outreach to support a case. And these skills are available because the Guard and Reserves bring in people with these skills from their civilian careers. And I get it. Once they're in uniform, they're soldiers. More often than not, the military takes people with specialized civilian skills and asks them to use those skills for supporting a mission. In my civil affairs command, an assistant district attorney, he is working in Europe, working on special legal matters that only his civilian skills could have brought to the fight. And the paper recommends using those types of skills to help law enforcement because they're overwhelmed right now by adversaries using criminality. to expand their work, and to better counter the current threat.
00:25:13 MARIAH YAGER
So regarding the proposed framework, how does this differ from the existing organized crime drug enforcement task forces that are multi -agency, investigator -led, intel -driven efforts?
00:25:25 DAVID LUNA
This would reinforce some of these other mechanisms, some of the other testers, but it's an opportunity to leverage the great expertise and skills of the reserve, as Jack was talking about. but to specifically focus on malign influence networks. It means strategic hotspots. But the Pacific Islands, for example, I think we need to be expanding more resources and having these more strategic teams that includes law enforcement. But again, this whole government approach, whole society, leveraging State Department, leveraging USA. and others to be able to strengthen the capacities, to be able to resist the economic coercion by China, Russia, Iran, and others.
00:26:17 JACK GAINES
Hey, David, can I jump in for a second? Yes, of course. Okay. The special action teams are different than what we already have at the Jayad of Sinjiktik because they would be able to work on ground as their military. So they could go to the embassies, they could go into the field. They could do narcotics monitoring or reporting. They could do intelligence sharing with partner nations. They could go work with the foreign security officers. They can work with the military liaison on actually working with partner nations law enforcement on building prosecution packets, investigative efforts, international law issues. For Title 32 example, the Marianas right now, the governor is asking for help with investigations and prosecutions against the PRC. as well as by the locals who are enabling folks from China coming in and slipping over to Guam. He does not have the resources. He is asking for help. And by bringing him National Guard members who are everything from agents to special agents to financial fraud, criminal investigators, and maritime security, it would build up his ability to slow or even stop criminal encroachment into the Marianas and then make it harder for China to then forward its goals of causing the Marianas to vote out people like the governor, bringing people that are PRC -friendly, and then shifting the whole region away from the United States over to the PRC orbit.
00:27:43 MARIAH YAGER
To add on that, does your concept for the special action teams include follow -up stability activities to actually replace what we seek to disrupt or eliminate?
00:27:52 JACK GAINES
A few years ago, I'd sent a recommendation for CJTF Horn of Africa to build a law enforcement task force. And it was a combination of military and law enforcement leads coming into the Order of Africa, specifically focused on that issue of once we pull out an illicit network, how do we build in reforms so that those actors cannot come back? Or if a nation had a coup and they threw out a dictator that was also an oligarch or an autocrat that was stealing all the resources, how do we bring in teams that can support? building in reforms and legal checks and balances so that nation can represent the people and the economy. There are forms of doing that. By civil affairs background, I usually defer to the people who do stability operations and transition operations.
00:28:42 MARIAH YAGER
Thank you. This idea of corruption being one of the center issues just resonates so much about China and their activities in South and Central America, their roles. And how are they exacerbating and taking advantage of the situation? And a lot of it tends to come back to corruption. And so if you were to want some of these anti -corruption measures, what specifically you might recommend?
00:29:12 DAVID LUNA
Yeah, we have to be doing more investigations. We've got to be tracking more of the cryptocratic assets, especially since this is where Russia or China are providing. Some of these fragile democracies are even more, you know, top scenes, right? Given the scale of DOD and its resources, working across the interagency to make anti -corruption a higher priority in this very complex environment and not only DOD, but the intelligence community and encourage the intelligence community to look at the strategic overlays of corruption money laundering.
00:29:48 JACK GAINES
Here's a very specific. Example, this came from Cleo Pascal, who writes for Freedom for Democracies and submitted a paper to the Air University on the Marianas. And basically, her investigation found that the Chinese citizens enjoy visa -free travel to the Marianas, which is a U .S. territory. So they take direct flights from Hong Kong, come into the Marianas without a visa, and then they disappear. Some of them show up in the Solomons. Some of them show up in Guam. Some of them disappear into the casinos, and then they are later arrested for walking on the military base, found in criminal networks, working drug shipments through U .S. postal systems, or working in political influence and using money to bribe people or support pro -PRC political parties. A lot of them get into Cuba trafficking. A lot of them get into casinos for money laundering. They're using that poorest border to gain access. And then they're going into the southern islands and they're using drugs and gambling and money laundering and human trafficking to build cash that they give to politicians that support the PRC or don't necessarily have a position at all. They groom them. They use propaganda and campaigns to get them elected. And then, like in the Solomons, suddenly they start shifting away from the U .S. orbit into more PRC -favorable ones, which, as a result, Solomons no longer allows Coast Guard to port. They don't even allow the Peace Corps to come in. So that's what we're talking about, is that flow of people that becomes criminality, and then that supports the political regime change from within.
00:31:31 DAVID LUNA
Canada is being decimated by Chinese law firm, not only by the Chinese state. by the triads just harassing, doing hostile actions to corrupt and destabilize Canada, to divide Canada from the U .S. So this is happening in other places as well, but we should be looking more closely at what China and other authoritarian states are doing in Canada.
00:32:00 MARIAH YAGER
All right. I wanted to get into lawfare. How are we looking at the use of lawfare? as part of this and maybe where does that fit within DOD?
00:32:10 JACK GAINES
Most of what we're promoting here is what's considered defense lawfare. Investigating, prosecuting, adversarial actions through criminality. There are offensive lawfare techniques. Say we want to target South Sudan because the leader is a criminal. All he does is create chaos and conflict and steal the resource to make money. An offensive lawfare option would be to map his illicit money that's hidden in Western banks in case he ever gets a coup against him and loses his power. To map that money and then go in and start negotiating with him for either him to have a peaceful, free, fair election and then transition out. Or we take the money and we stop him from doing any future types of banking with the Western nations. So it's that type of reverse extortion, as I call it. the types of lawfare operations that can happen. I can't tell you if they have or not. I know that Angola's former dictator, when he left power, there were agreements that part of the money that he had stolen would go back towards NGOs to build up a more representative democracy and check some balances in that country. So there are ways to go at it. We can discuss that at another time.
00:33:25 DAVID LUNA
If you look at the website of the U .S. Chamber of Commerce, These sovereign wealth funds, who are often associated with some of these authoritarian states, are abusing American courts to be able to harass our corporations, to use discovery as well, to obtain IP and sensitive trade information as well.
00:33:48 MARIAH YAGER
All right. Thank you for addressing those last couple of points. I really appreciate that. So to our audience, thank you so much for joining us today. And I posted the white paper, the slides. So, Ms. Julina, thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you.
00:34:05 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.
Tuesday Sep 24, 2024
Tuesday Sep 24, 2024
Today, we welcome back the author, actor, public speaker, Ret. Lt Colonel Scott Mann to discuss his new book "Nobody is Coming to Save You" https://scottmann.com/
The website Nobody is Coming to Save You is a practical guide for leaders who want to make a bigger impact in the world now. It distills what I’ve learned over my three-decade career as a Green Beret into strategies you can use to lead others through hard change. These are the same tactics Green Berets use to get vital stuff done when stakes are high and conditions impossible. You’ll also learn about human behavior, strategic influence and dynamic storytelling because relationships are rocket fuel for getting big sh*t done.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
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Special thanks to Ahimsaz for the sample of “Shahamat." Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wmoH-fHhwQ
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Transcript
00:00:01 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Please welcome retired Lieutenant Colonel Scott Mann.
00:00:39 JACK GAINES
As a Green Beret, Scott designed and led the local village stability operations program in Afghanistan. After leaving the military, he began to focus on using his experience with the struggle of transition from a fast -paced, high -risk lifestyle to civilian world of work and family. As a result, he launched Hero's Journey to help other service members, first responders, and their families cope with post -crisis trauma through storytelling. Scott also wrote and featured in the play and film Last Man Out, which portrays the impacts of war on our veterans and their families. Additionally, after Kabul fell to the Taliban, Scott and others launched Task Force Pineapple Express to help Afghan partners leave the country. Scott has made three appearances on TEDx to discuss his work with veterans and first responders and is now announcing his new book, No One is Coming to Save You, which will be released in October. So enjoy. Your book is coming out. It is. In October, right? October 1. October 1. It's a great book. I really liked how you took the turn. This is a lot of different things that the ESM would diagnose as issues with. adaptability, with coping skills, general anxiety, you were able to successfully build them down into a thing you call the churn. And that's really, really helpful because if I told somebody they have a bipolar and anxiety complexity disorder, they'd be like, what in the hell are you talking about? But if you say you're stuck in the churn, which is a culmination of all these different types of things they're struggling with. you created an object, you gave it a name, and it gave them a way for people's minds to focus on that and identify it. And then by doing that, preying on how to separate themselves from the churn and give themselves a break, give themselves some air so that they can recover a little bit. Because with any kind of condition that people are struggling with, they have to learn how to separate themselves from it in order to grow, to heal.
00:02:45 SCOTT MANN
Yeah, it's well said. And the thing is, I've been working on the book for years, and most of the books I've written have been either about Afghanistan or they've been about veteran transition. And a lot of folks have been after me to write a nonfiction, story -based, narrative -based book on how did we do Pineapple? How did we do Last Out? Because I don't have a title. I don't have authority. I don't have a lot of resources. Yet those were strategically impactful things, just like DSO. How did I do that? And so I decided to write a book, a very quick read, called Nobody's Coming to Save You. which was the rally cry in most SFA camps throughout history, but you can still get big shit done. And this is what this is. It's kind of a guide to getting big shit done. And to your point about the churn, the thing is, and this is Ivan Tyrrell again, he says that the brain is a metaphorical pattern matching organ and it has a mandate to make sense of the world. So metaphor and story is how the brain makes sense, right? And this is another reason that we want to be storytellers. And what I found is, for example, The Democrat or Republican sitting across from you at the holiday dinner table is not the enemy. The person that cuts you off in traffic is not the enemy. The person who wears a mask or doesn't wear a mask and points their finger at you is not the enemy. The person on LinkedIn that disagrees with your political opinion is not the enemy. The churn is the enemy. And I characterize the churn as the antagonist in this book. It is both an external and internal condition within our civil society that is novel and new. And it's something that we just have not faced as a country until the last five, 10 years. And we see versions of the churn over in Afghanistan, in Iraq, where tribal dynamics at play in groups and out groups. And you've also got your own internal resistance that you're dealing with. And that's just the nature of being in that roiling, churning environment. But it's weird to see it here in the United States, where we are supposed to be a society of abundance and rule of law. And out of many come one. And much of that has fallen away. And it was in that dark period of my transition that I saw, wow, there's a churn right here at home. And as Sebastian Younger says, most combat veterans are willing to die for their country, but they have no idea how to live for it because it's hard to know how to live for a country that's tearing itself apart along every imaginable line from race to economics to religion. And that is my assessment, the churn and that division, that distrust, that disengagement. As humans, we have an obsession for imitation. Back in the traditional world, we imitated animals when we thought animal pelts. Well, now we're obsessed with imitating machines. And the left hemisphere of our brain is obsessed with control while the right hemisphere is obsessed with the connection to the natural world. And the left has always worked for the right. But according to a lot of neuroscientists, it's flipped because of these things. We've become so obsessed with this represented reality that we've lost our connection to the natural world. And so my book starts off by framing the enemy. That's the first special ops imperative. Always understand your operational environment. Well, our operational environment has changed. What got us here is not going to get us there. So I take about one third of the book to lay out, look, your operating environment is different. And it's not just about transitioning from military to civilian. The civil society we live in. is different externally and internally. And if you don't know that, then you are at risk of being lured into shadow tribalism and a range of other things. If you do know it, the antibody to it is an understanding and appreciation of the human operating system. Another metaphor I use is the iceberg, right? So you've got the iceberg versus the churn and getting below the waterline of that iceberg part you can't see. That's where the innate human realities reside that we can leverage.
00:06:32 SCOTT MANN
storytelling, empathy, active listening, breath, a range of things that are available to us. They're innate. They're already in us. Our ancestors knew, but we need to access them in a new way with an improved understanding of how our environment has changed so that we can lead with those things. And the cool thing is, and I'll end on this for this question, is that that's available to all of us, whether you're working in diplomacy right now, whether you're working in civil affairs right now, or whether you are transitioned and you're trying to just lead your family, most people are victims of the churn. And if you have a language and a grammar for it, and if you have an understanding of the human operating system and a practicality and how you can engage using old school or personal skills, you can lead your way pretty much out of anything without a time.
00:07:20 JACK GAINES
One brilliant point you had in there was that the person on the social media that's Leaving comments is not your enemy. A person who cuts you off is not your enemy. Because if you are stuck in a churn, it triggers that they are the enemy because it's your natural instinct that they've wronged you and you have to defend yourself. So by separating the person from that sense, you can back away from potential fights, road rage, getting arrested. It does. Yeah.
00:07:50 SCOTT MANN
And all of that could happen. Think about how we're trained in these rough places around the world to respond, and the responses that have been ingrained in us are not necessarily appropriate for responses in our civil society here at home. Yet, the way in which our body physiologically responds, it goes into a trance state. We enter a sympathetic state of fight, flight, or freeze. Our bodies have been preconditioned to fight. Our bodies have been preconditioned to lean into the problem in a very aggressive way, for example. And that's a primal response that has been infused with training. Okay. Well, here, if you're watching your 401k erode over six months, kind of response that we were trained to do is not appropriate. Is to go burn down the hedge fund. Yeah. The reality is, so what's actually happening there is that trance state that Ivan Terrell talks about. We all go into it. A trance state is just a state of hyper -focus. And the churn has created these conditions all around us where people are in it all the time. And when you go into a trance state and get a secondary emotion of anger, anger makes you stupid. Anger reduces your higher intelligence functions. You can't look with a shared perspective. You're trying to survive. And so what are we going to do for those of us who have trained a certain way? It's not good. And so we have to manage our energy. We have to manage the energy in the room. And it starts, I believe, when emotions are low by reading about and learning about the charm that's out there and this human operating system that's old and primal within us and is going to act on us one way or the other. And the more that we can appreciate the human operating system and reconnect to it, the more we can manage our own energy in a possible way within this new context that we live in. and be the most relevant, relatable person in the room. Those skills that we learned in the military all of a sudden truly then become very relevant. But if we can't manage the churn or read it for what it is and then manage our energy and those around us, we will be a pawn for the divisionist leaders that are out there just like everybody else.
00:10:09 JACK GAINES
That's a great point. That churn of feeling like it's coming at you from every angle. allows people who do work in information and influence to then say, okay, you're all wound up. Here's the bad guy. And then have them lunge at that person or that issue and explode all that energy that they've been building up on a problem. It goes after what I want them to do versus them thinking through an issue and actually coming up with their own position, either agreeing or dissenting on what I want.
00:10:37 SCOTT MANN
It's a very good definition of what I call divisionist leaders in the book. It's at a basic level that the civil society we live in here in the West is based on the individual. The individual is above the group. Well, in most places of the world and where we all come from, the group is above the individual. Status society is where we all come from. Just like any other mammal, it's for the good of the group because it's the only way you can acquire resources, maintain resources, find a mate. It's all within your circle, your tribe, your quam. And the group is above the individual. Well, in America and other places, we put the individual above the group. That's not a natural state of affairs. Which is why cults are so popular. Yes. And it's also why leadership is so essential and why a lot of social scientists say that you need for a democracy or a republic to survive that way. You need social capital where you have faith in each other and trust as neighbors. You need institutions that you can. have trust in and then you need stories that you tell each other and the outside world that you believe in right how are we doing on that we are really struggling with all of those so as a result they've abandoned that stewardship of bridging and then instead they practice this divisionist approach where they foment instability from the president all the way down both parties to meet their own narrow agenda social media engineers Instagram and Facebook create algorithms that are designed to encourage us to share negative fear -based information about outgroups because they've done the studies and they know that we will share information faster if it's negative information about an outgroup. So in other words, you have engineers that have done deep research on in -group, out -group, tribal dynamics, and then they're using it. You orchestrate algorithms that will leverage in -group, out -group behavior. Now, that to me is insidious. That is a divisionist approach that is practiced in 24 -7 news. It's practiced in politics. It's practiced in social media. And if we're not careful as humans who are just moving along our day, we will enter into this represented world. It's not reality. It's a represented reality. It's not the natural world. And that world is their world. 24 -7 news is the world of the divisionist. It's not an even plank. And so it's so easy to just get sucked into that trance state where the primal condition visits you, and all of a sudden, you're just as tribal as anybody, and you are dealing with contempt and moral superiority. That's the two things you always want to use as an indicator. Am I demonstrating contempt that I would normally reserve for enemies, and am I demonstrating rigidity and moral superiority? If you are, you are likely in a trance state and you've likely been mobilized. And so the book takes some time in the beginning to equip us with this grammar, with this framework, so that then you can step into that arena reconfigured for how you lead yourself and how you lead other people in these times that we live in and still get big shit done.
00:13:55 JACK GAINES
The second half of the book is more of how to use the tools. to then go out and battle those issues. Simple things like how to do introductions, how to tell a story. One of the real gems of this book is the seven -act storytelling guide that you built because it goes down every step of how to tell a story from the beginning to drawing people in and how you use details, how you set up the issue, how you set up the solutions and what the future looks like. And it's something that's not often written about. Here people say storytelling is very important and they go to a story, but they don't really break down how you do that. Right. Well,
00:14:36 SCOTT MANN
let me ask you this, Jack. Been around the game a long time, right? Yes, I am that old. But how would you characterize introductions in the world of the audience that you speak to on this podcast? Typically, when people introduce people from the stage, when they introduce them at mixers, I've been very underwhelmed by how we introduce humans to humans. But I'm curious on your thoughts on it. Yes.
00:15:01 JACK GAINES
I learned from Jordan Harbinger. He has a guide on how to present yourself in a room, how to make introductions, how to build connections and network. And I follow his introduction system because it's all about getting the background of the people that you're going to introduce, making sure that both of them want to be introduced, and then writing. an introduction that promotes and builds both of them up so they feel like a hero meeting the other person. I'll be honest, whenever I give someone an introduction, I am selling them as the coolest person on the planet and has helped people connect and make better relations. It's a sacred act because we're social creatures.
00:15:40 SCOTT MANN
sacred act because we're social creatures. We're wired to interact. But my assessment, and I'm glad to hear that you do that, my read on most of our community, and the more senior you get, the more we suck at introductions. to the point of it almost being insulting. The way some people introduce others from the stage, guest speakers, they read their bios word for word instead of talking to the audience about, hey, here's why I think this person that I've taken your time with today to have you be here, why I think they will serve what you are about in your life and why I think you should listen to them. The point here is that there are a range of innate interpersonal skills that are available to us as humans. that our great -grandparents understood and knew. But now that we have advancements in neuroscience, we can actually study brain activity when storytelling, active listening, introductions, when you're honoring somebody for an award or their departure from their organization. We can actually measure that. For example, David Phillips did a study called Death by PowerPoint, and he hooked audiences up to a machine. And he measured their brain activity during PowerPoint presentations where he learned that 90 % of the content that you present in a PowerPoint presentation, after you say thank you for your time, within 30 seconds, 90 % of it's forgotten because you're engaging working memory. You're not engaging long -term memory. Storytelling engages long -term memory, and it has for 70 ,000 years. That's why we remember the stories our grandparents tell us with vivid detail. or a story that a mentor from the Vietnam War told us with vivid detail. It's how we've survived and actually socially evolved as a species. We're wired as story animals. But yet, everything that we've created in the modern world is the opposite of that. It's short form communications. It's robot -like. And my hope with the book is to get back to the old school interpersonal skills and become very proficient in those and then... Let them inform all the stuff you do at the tip of the iceberg. And I'm not telling you to abandon PowerPoint. I'm saying inform PowerPoint with a narrative competency that holds your listener's attention with a story in the beginning and then you wrap the story up at the end of the presentation or populate the presentation with small stories throughout because the brain is a metaphorical pattern matching organ. If you don't know that as a senior leader. That the brain A has a mandate to make sense of the world and that the brain B does it through metaphor and narratives. You are at a competitive disadvantage and frankly, irrelevant to the people that you lead and engage with.
00:18:23 JACK GAINES
Storytelling. It's a great segue to your points about you struggle, we struggle. But if you don't add that struggle into your story and it's not authentic, people don't really believe you. And we've seen that. We've seen the sales pitch style of storytelling.
00:18:39 SCOTT MANN
Here's the thing, and I hear exactly what you're saying, and this is where I think our tip of the iceberg modern world unwittingly has conditioned us to the wrong approach to storytelling. Everywhere you look, and senior leaders are really bad about this, and I hope that if there's any listening, you'll hear me on this. If what you do is get up there and talk about three ways to be great, it's just unwatchable. We are inundated with it everywhere we turn. And part of that reason is because we've been conditioned. in this modern, high -tech, mass media world. And it becomes performative. And storytelling can be performative, but storytelling in its oldest form, honestly. If I staggered into the campfire 10 ,000 years ago and I'm like, let me tell you guys why Saber 2 Tigers make shitty pets, you're going to lean in and you're going to listen. Sure. And when I get into the detail of my struggle and why I'm all scuffed up and cut up. then you listen autobiographically. You locate yourself in that story, and it is as if you went through that lived experience without going through it. I'm doing it now with the saber -tooth timer. Right, and that's called narrative transportation. Narrative transportation creates reciprocity. It creates meaning. It creates long -term memory. It accelerates the trust between the audience and the listener. But here's the thing. If you leave struggle out, and you go right to the three ways to be great like me, your audience will not only dismiss you, according to Dr. Kendall Haven, they will turn on you.
00:19:28 JACK GAINES
to lean
00:20:11 SCOTT MANN
will turn on you. They will become a narrative insurgent to your story, to your keynote, to your vision, right? And so struggle is not only something that is necessary for storytelling, it's a biological necessity. And so the smart leader is going to find ways to integrate struggle. into their personal and their organizational narratives. And that's why I took a whole chapter to talk about it because it is that important. Well, it feels like you're giving people ammunition to shoot you with. Now, it feels awful, Jack. And a lot of people, that's when they go, well, I don't want to talk about me. I don't want to make it about me. A lot of veterans struggle with this. But what I tell them is, listen, this has nothing to do with you. Stories are told in the service of the listener. But if you don't invoke... your own personal struggle so that they can achieve a level of relatability of what she's been through, where that young soldier goes, oh, wow, she's just like me. She's been through what I've been through. Then that emotional breach happens and they open up. So there are so many different reasons. And I think the chapter really hits it hard. But suffice it to say that for this podcast, if you are going to engage people and move in a strategic way, struggle is a biological necessity to that process. Nice.
00:21:33 JACK GAINES
You created a whole TED Talk around being generous with your scars. I really enjoyed the TED Talk, by the way. One, because it did show how challenges and struggles do build towards a better future, but also in how you treated the other actors. Because every time you cut scenes, you guys kind of like fist bumped or handshaked or some type of good job thing. And that showed me that it's more than just scene break. It's actually people. in as a team performing it to succeed.
00:22:04 SCOTT MANN
You're the first person that's ever picked up on that. I really appreciate that. And you're right. And they were all veterans, except for one, and she was a military family member. That was my third TED Talk that I had done, and I wanted them to be in that one. Because it was tough to talk about my mental health, and they had been essential in me dealing with it and getting the play on its feet. And we had toured at that point all over the country. So we all have this very deep bond. And you're right to pick up on that because the generosity of scars is what I characterize as the integration struggle. It is the repurposing of one's struggle in the service of others by telling your story. That's what I mean by being generous with your scars. If you are generous with your struggle. and you share it with the idea that someone else can locate themselves in their story and make meaning out of your suffering, out of your struggle, how can it get more generous than that? And that's what I had to realize with my mental health and with my challenges that I had gone through. If I could repurpose those struggles, and with the TED Talk, we had already done it with the play, but I wanted people to see it in a TED environment on full display, that even our darkest scars, the ones that are most embarrassing. can be repurposed in the service of others. Because our Gold Star families, our combat veterans, civilians who've been through things in their life, whether it's divorce or bankruptcy, all of those things hold immense value to the people that are out there trying to make sense of a very difficult world of churn. And if you're willing to repurpose, to be generous with your struggles, man, there's no limit, no ceiling to the impact you can have in this world.
00:23:46 JACK GAINES
Well, that gets to why I spotted a certain sentence in your book. Nowadays, we need to move large numbers of people rough times. Let's make it personal in order to make it universal. And I kind of called that your calling because you seem like you've gone to that dark spot. You've even teased with suicide. You worked through it. And like a good leader, now you're saying, hey, I'm there. I'm moving forward. I'll rally here. Let's all get together and do this. And it seems like you're trying to find and build a path for others to relieve the struggle of coping with their transition, with their challenges of life. And for people that weren't in the military, with all of the churn and the problems coming in so that they can see that, hey, there are alternatives. There are things that you can do better yourself, your community, and get past what people are trying to drive you towards anger and conflict.
00:24:42 SCOTT MANN
Yeah, I appreciate that. I go back to one of the first chapters in the book after we get past the churn and I talk about what my dad taught me and still teaches me with leaving tracks. And, you know, as meaning -seeking, meaning -assigning creatures, we are on this earth, I believe, to leave tracks, as my dad calls it. In other words, to leave a legacy that lasts well beyond our time. And maybe it's manifested in how we, as our kids, maybe it's the capacity that we build in our job. Maybe it's just the relationships that we build. in friendships and things like that. But however it manifests, those tracks, the metric that I always kind of use for them is that they don't just serve the people around you. They serve the people you've never even seen. And so for me, that's really helped me in terms of my journey that I'm on for the rest of the years that I have on this earth. I'm here to lead my track. And I work very diligently on getting clear on my tracks and continue to do that. And also recognize that I know I'm on the patrol just like anybody else. I don't feel like I'm done. I still am very much in the arena as an advocate, as a artist, as a leader, and in some regards. And my vision of my tracks is to pour myself into as many people as I can through a range of modalities from books to plays to workshops that we run live and help leaders who are really looking to make that larger impact get people up on the rooftop. and move in ways that they otherwise wouldn't go. And I do believe that I've found not the way, but a way to help folks do that and love it. I just love it so much. And I think the reason I love it is because I'm still making tons of mistakes. I'm still getting out there and learning new skills, like acting at age 51. I mean, you talk about the ultimate midlife crisis. Good Lord. But it's allowed me, Jack, to really get in there and mix it up with a range of industry performers who are just trying to do the same thing and to be able to just say, look, here's what I found along the way. What do you see? And just approach it like team guys after a mission or during a training exercise where you kind of pull each other aside and say, here's what I'm seeing. What do you think? And let's try this. I love it gives me such purpose. It gives me such fulfillment. And I'm just blessed, honestly, to be able to do that in transition and maybe help a few folks have not as dark a transition as I did and maybe get to fulfillment faster, whether that transitions from the military or the next job or whatever. We're all trying to make an impact. And if I can play a role in that, man, it's good stuff. I think you do.
00:27:27 JACK GAINES
you do. And think about from the rooftop. It's a guide to self -agency. Because you were talking about getting big shit done. It's easy if you have a star or you have a colonel's eagle on your chest because you've been given the authority. But when you don't, the society has to choose you to lead. That make sense? Yes. Because if you were somebody else and they just didn't have that stuff, that X that makes a person attracting the crowd, then you'd be out there doing plays and it would have been a community hitter and it would have gone away because it didn't stick. So population is choosing you to lead. It does. Which is a much harder gig than coming in with an eagle. Yeah.
00:28:09 SCOTT MANN
Or a star. Yeah. Yeah, it is. But I do think it's what's warranted and needed today more than ever. And that's why it's such good news for people in the churn because most of us don't have stars. Most of us don't have eagles. And then even those who do or C -suites. I don't necessarily know that they're appreciating it and leveraging it to the way that they could. They're writing it too much. And so even if you do have those formal titles, you can still apply this methodology in a way that it moves people to want to go to the rooftop for you. Again, another metaphor that in Afghanistan, I saw time and time again, these teen guys and girls that would move and inspire through social capital. and vision and old school interpersonal skills when risk was low, these individuals to go up on a rooftop and fight when they were terrified and reluctant when risk was high. And that to me is the ultimate endeavor for a leader in any situation is building social capital infused with purpose when risk is low is so strong that people go up to a rooftop and take action when risk is high, not because they have to, but because they choose to. And if you can do that over and over again, whether it's a play, whether it's Pineapple Express, whether it's starting your business, whether it is putting that piece of music out there that you've always wanted, or just helping your child move through addiction, all of these things are something bigger than ourselves. All of these things are ways of leaving tracks. And the good news is, in my assessment, There is both an art and a science available to us in these unprecedented times of churn that we live in to do it. But we've got to train. It's not just instinct. What got us here is not going to get us there. Even the most high -performing, I think we've got to re -evaluate our operational environment. We've got to get a new grammar and a new lexicon for what we're dealing with. And we need to reconnect to this human operating system that's primal and is struggling to make sense of this churn. And once we can start to do that, then we can start to implement storytelling, active listening, nonverbal physicality, breath work, empathy. And by the way, this is not a Pollyanna thing. You know, I don't believe that what's in this book or my methodology is all about, you know, I'm okay, you're okay stuff. It is based on human connection, but it's infused with red lines and always standing your ground on what you believe in. I think that what we did with Pineapple Express and some other things demonstrates that. That it's not about just rolling over and going along to get along. Willingness to pick the lead and thrive, be successful. When it's hard. When it's hard. Right. And nobody else is coming. Because that's the ultimate time, honestly, to lead. When nobody else is coming. And to me, that's the point in which you step into the arena when everybody else steps back. When that tap on the shoulder comes and you're like, you've got to be kidding. You've got to be kidding me. Right now. You know, like that dude is way better than me or this girl over here should be doing this. Well, guess what? She's not. It's your turn now. It's your turn.
00:31:20 JACK GAINES
your turn. All right. I've spoken everything I wanted to discuss. Is there anything else you want to pitch or bring up? Is there anything we missed?
00:31:29 SCOTT MANN
I appreciate the thoroughness in the work you did ahead of time. I think that's always evidenced. So I appreciate it. As a fellow podcast host, I know what that takes to do that. And so it's not lost on me. I do hope that people will back out the book when it comes out on October 1st. The easiest way to do it is scottman .com. All of my body of work is there. And I hope people stay connected. And if we could ever serve in any way on Open with Human Connection, the human operating system, the churn, we've got a range of things out there on it. A lot of them are free. As you go forward, if you remember anything from this interview is when all else fails, make a human connection. Make a human connection before anything. It could be eye contact. It could be a handshake. It could just be taking a breath and taking in the person in front of you. It could be asking how their kids are. You'll know. You get in there. But if we could just put human connections before everything else, that could have a massive impact in your ability to influence hard jobs. Because no one does. Everybody's so busy on their agenda and transactions that they forget to make a human connection first. And I think those are the people that follow in the times that are coming. Absolutely. Social capital is the oldest form of capital in the world. And it always will be. Well, thank you. This was terrific,
00:32:47 JACK GAINES
was terrific, Scott. I'm glad you took all this time.
00:32:49 SCOTT MANN
Yeah, for sure, man. Thank you so much. This is like the first book interview I've done. And so I appreciate everything you're doing to get it out there. And again, I hope folks will pick it up because I do think it's a very, very practical guide to getting big shit done. All right. Well, thank you very much. Absolutely. Thanks, pal. We'll talk to you soon.
00:33:08 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. 1CA Podcast.
Tuesday Sep 17, 2024
Tuesday Sep 17, 2024
Today, Brain Hancock hosts Col. Jeffrey Fiddler to discuss his career and his experience at the Pentagon helping manage the DOD response to the COVID 19 outbreak.
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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
---
Special thanks to Natalia Lafourcade for the sample of Tú Sí Sabes Quererme (En Manos de Los Macorinos). Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABLT6hdgEek
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Transcript
00:00:01 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA podcast. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website. at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Colonel Jeffrey Fiddler is a civil affairs officer with 34 years, thank you, sir, of combined enlisted and commissioned service. He has a master's degree in strategic studies and a master's and bachelor's degrees in criminal justice. On the civilian side, he is a special agent with the Department of Homeland Security. Colonel Fidler, welcome to the show. Great to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me. I tell you, sir, with all of that experience you have in both infantry and military police, who actually rolls with more firepower than an infantry company, I'm making you think you just like to fire guns. Oh, yeah. Love shooting guns. Fair enough. So I'm going to ask you a little bit about your civil affairs journey in a moment, but let me give out the quick disclaimer here. A reminder to the audience, all of the remarks of the participants are solely ours. Now, sir, I met you here in Europe when you replaced the legendary Tony Vaja as chief of the civil affairs division at U .S. Army Europe and Africa. Boy, a lot has happened since then. It has.
00:01:41 JEFFREY FIDDLER
has. A lot has changed. First of all, Colonel Vaja is great. Tough guy to replace. As you know, Brian, he was the DCO of the 353KCOM when I was in brigade command. So I got to know Tony for two years. We would talk at least a couple of times a week. The institutional knowledge that he has is just amazing. It's unbelievable. It really is. So I still talk to Tony to this day.
00:02:03 BRIAN HANCOCK
Tony to this day. And there's so many rich reasons why you join civil affairs. But the quality of the people you meet on that journey, I think, is one of the things that keeps us in this field. Absolutely. Yeah. So when I first got here,
00:02:16 JEFFREY FIDDLER
we were G39. We had SEMA, Space, IO, Civil Affairs, PSYOP, Brigadier General Ellis, who's... Selected for major general, our old boss, our old boss's boss, he wanted to separate all those divisions out. So we're now fully functional G3 civil affairs division, which is interesting for USRAF because the 06 lead is going to be a comp of three person going forward, which is a little different from some of the other directorates and divisions that you see here in USRAF. Yeah.
00:02:48 BRIAN HANCOCK
Well, given the breakout, I wonder if they're just going to add a G9 shop at some point. I thought about that. The two -star level, certainly we have a G9 shop. Yeah. I'm currently filling a G9 billet for the 79 Theater Support Command. So that would not surprise me, especially given the importance that civil affairs plays in CIMIC and in competition and in all of the setting, the theater and shaping operations that we're doing right now. Absolutely. I went back and forth on that because I had talked to General Ellis about that.
00:03:12 JEFFREY FIDDLER
and forth on that because I had talked to General Ellis about that. The reason why I like being in the G3 is that we have all the integrating cells, the G33, G35. Right. And for long -term planning, we do have an officer, Major George Warren. He's embedded with the G5 downstairs. And the reason why I like being in the G3 is that any organization that you go to, the three shop is the center of gravity. Always. So when those emergent missions come up, like Cyprus or the Greek floods, anything even remotely related to civil affairs, even in an infantry mindset or whatever, they look over to us and then we get the tap on the shoulder, which is pretty cool for the soldiers in the division.
00:03:52 BRIAN HANCOCK
in the division. Well, you must be doing something right to have that kind of demand signal. So well done. It's just luck. I'd rather be lucky than good in the final analysis. So I appreciate that. Yeah. Now, one of the things that I personally love about civil affairs is that since we are a non -accessions branch and Of course, in the Marine Corps, it's a B -billet for the officers. So while they're non -commissioned officers can be a civil affairs officer for their career, they cannot on the officer side. So there's a lot of rotation and change in both the Army and the Marine Corps on the officer side, which basically means almost every civil affairs officer that you meet is different, has different skill sets, has a different career path, a lot of awesome diversity, I think, that we have in the branch. And so let me turn to your story. You commissioned as an infantry officer in the 90s. And now you're a civil affairs officer. How did you get here?
00:04:50 JEFFREY FIDDLER
So I think it was right after the surge in Iraq. And that was when they took a lot of the chemical folks because I was at the time. Made a mayor defense artillery. Yeah.
00:04:57 BRIAN HANCOCK
at the time.
00:05:00 JEFFREY FIDDLER
So I was voluntold like, hey, you're going to go down to Fort Liberty. You're going to go to CA school. And then all started before that, I was in the Massachusetts Army National Guard and very tough to get promoted. Yeah, a few slots. Yeah, a few slots. So after Operation Noble Eagle, when we did all the defense of the bases, I transferred over to the Army Reserve,
00:05:12 BRIAN HANCOCK
a few slots.
00:05:21 JEFFREY FIDDLER
had to pick up a basic branch that the Army Reserve had, which is an infantry. People out in the audience might know there is one infantry battalion in the Army Reserve. I didn't know that. I was thinking the Guard,
00:05:31 BRIAN HANCOCK
didn't know that. I was thinking the Guard, but I didn't realize we had it in the Compo 3.
00:05:33 JEFFREY FIDDLER
but I didn't realize we had it in the Compo 3. Yeah, no, there's one infantry battalion in the Army Reserve, and it's out in Hawaii. A good friend of mine, Alan Perkins, Lieutenant Colonel Alan Perkins, just commanded that, but that's a whole separate story. So you want to talk about IDT travel, he had to fly from Boston to Hawaii for drill weekend. He probably hated that. Yeah, he probably did. But it's the only infantry battalion in the Army Reserve. All right. So we needed those influx of CA officers. So I got orders to go down there and went to school and the rest is history.
00:05:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah,
00:05:51 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, he probably
00:06:01 BRIAN HANCOCK
history. You've spent most of your career in infantry law enforcement and the chemical corps. How do those fields assist you in your civil affairs work?
00:06:14 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Well, two things come to mind. In the infantry, you have those type A personalities. And I'm not saying I am one, but you have to be aggressive in the infantry. For us as civil affairs to show our relevancy, you have to be aggressive. Agreed. If you sit back and wait for something to happen, you're going to be marginalized. Right. You're going to watch your budget go,
00:06:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
You're going to watch your budget go, dude.
00:06:34 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah. Exactly. So you've got to show some type of relevancy to that maneuver commander. So you don't necessarily have to be infantry to start up, but I think you need to be an aggressive officer. Like we say in the civil affairs division, we're not taking the foot off the gas pedal.
00:06:47 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right. We're just going to keep on pushing forward. You know, that's one of the things I also I've noticed about civil affairs formation, even at the civil affairs. action team cat level foreman and army doctrine. These folks are always volunteering for missions. They're always making suggestions. They're not waiting to be tasked to solve a problem that they think they can help and add value. They're speaking up. They're going to the three. They're going to the fire's chief. They're going to whoever and saying, hey, you know, I think we can help you with that problem. And they're very aggressive. And that makes them one of the hardest working and highest op tempo groups as a slice enabler. to combat arms in combat operations. But that's about a return on investment and earning your pay. So I agree. I think now more than ever, with some civil affairs battalions going away, there's force reduction in the army in general. It's not just civil affairs. I think now more than ever, we have to beat those folks who ship up and add value at every level of war to make sure that we're not only achieving tactical battlefield success, but we're also... achieving operational and ultimately strategic success so we don't keep going back and repeating crisis after crisis. Yes.
00:06:47 JEFFREY FIDDLER
We're just going to
00:07:57 JEFFREY FIDDLER
And I think on the law enforcement side, one of the things that they're looking for for training is negotiation training. Yeah. How do you do that? And I think in law enforcement, if you're a decent law enforcement officer, you've got to know how to negotiate with people. And I think for civil affairs, that's a huge thing for us because we're really that connective tissue between the civilian populace and the military. We saw that just recently down in Cyprus, that you dealt with a pretty big problem set getting humanitarian assistance into Gaza, and you have a lot of international players everywhere. IGOs that are over there that want to do something, NGOs, different militaries from other countries. How do you pull all that together? You have to have some kind of negotiation training, or have done that in the past, and I think a lot of us have in civil affairs.
00:08:03 SPEAKER_00
Yeah. How
00:08:43 BRIAN HANCOCK
I think so too. Many of the most important problem sets, there are ways to solve them other than bullets. And bullets may be expedient, but again, that tends to generate a lot of long -term animosity, which leads to that crisis after crisis, right? So critical skill definitely need more of that. And if we're not going to plus up civil affairs, maybe we need to start training some other people to understand that, or at least how... to utilize the civil affairs assets they have properly. And I think we're going to talk a little bit more about that later. Now, not long ago, the psychological operations groups of the United States Army Civil Affairs and Psychological Operations Command, known as USACAPOC, they did that reorganization. They took their separate psychological operations groups, their POGs, and which, by the way, had a broken officer pyramid. They had about 100 captain positions, which would go to 33 major positions. and then go to 505 lieutenant colonel positions, four of which were battalion command.
00:08:57 SPEAKER_00
right?
00:09:45 BRIAN HANCOCK
So it really became hard to have a career in PSYOP. Those are now moved under the KCOM, theoretically integrated within the KCOM. So we have civil affairs and psychological operations not only working together, but actually coexisting the same unit together. KPOC started with some experiments in that, and there's more of that occurring now. You commanded a civil affairs and psychological operations combined battalion. What was that experience like for you? And do you have any opinions on whether combining those two elements is a good long -term strategy for the command? Sure. Well,
00:10:21 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I'm not going to say any psyop jokes because I put my foot in my mouth in the past on that. There's a lot of CA officers that are dual -headed. I am. I'm one of them. Exactly. See? So I didn't do it. It's not going to be there in perpetuity. All right. But I had a CA PSYOP training battalion, Brian. So really, we're training NCOES, wasn't an operational battalion. Still counts as battalion command time for anybody that's out there that's looking for a battalion command. And those CA PSYOP training battalions are, in my opinion, you're not only getting your command time done, but it's also a good broadening assignment because you're running a schoolhouse. Right on. How often do you get that opportunity other than going into one of the more traditional training commands? Yeah,
00:10:28 SPEAKER_00
Exactly. See? So I didn't do it. It's not going to be there in perpetuity.
00:11:00 BRIAN HANCOCK
you don't. You either work for TRADOC or you become a defense contractor for somebody's school, right? Yeah.
00:11:06 JEFFREY FIDDLER
It's a really different experience. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot about running a schoolhouse. So that was, it was interesting. For example, so my S3 at the battalion was PSYOP. So, you know, you can't do anything without your S3. He didn't work too much with CA. I haven't worked too much with PSYOP, but at the end of the day, we're all wearing a uniform. We're going to figure out a way to make it happen. When I look at 353KCOM, I think they have 2POG underneath them. So now you have three brigade -size commands under there. So I think I understand why KPOC did it. I think we'd have to ask the folks down there, but they were direct reporting, right, to use KPOC before. Yes, or DRU.
00:11:45 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yes, or DRU.
00:11:46 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I think right now, I mean, for exercise support, I think we have some of those folks coming out from 2POG. And I think the fact that we had folks on the ground out here, like our division, were all from the 353KCOM. kind of help massage that so that we can get more psyop folks over here in Europe.
00:12:03 BRIAN HANCOCK
I think from the doctrine point of view, and perhaps from the demands of modern warfare point of view, it does make sense. We look at FM3 Taco talking about multi -domain operations, moving these things together and synchronizing them in time and space for the Gestalt principle, kind of greater effect than you have if you were doing them individually. It goes a step further with information advantage. experimental doctrine, it's not official, where they say we not only need multi -domain operations, but we have things like the electromagnetic spectrum, which is an environment, not a domain. You've got the information, which in Army doctrine is a dimension. In Marine Corps, it's a co -equal war fighting function. And at the joint level, it's a joint function. But we need all of those things. Battlefield relevant, as you said earlier, we have to show that return on investment to a maneuver commander who's going to be a combat arms guard. And we have to show him that what we did made him more survivable, more lethal, more effective in a measurable way. So it has to be a fairly significant change to hit the detection of threshold and be measurable. And as we start adding all of these information -related capabilities together, And CAs is an information -related capability, perhaps not its primary role by doctrine, but is an IRC. Together, we can potentially get after that. So it makes sense to me why we'd want to put a PSYOP and CA together. I think we need to do a lot more than that. Probably need lawfare there and religious engagement there and public affairs there. We're doing things like theater information -advantaged elements, theater information -advantaged attachments, which add... many of those things, but still don't bring in the lawfare or the religious outreach. But it seems to me like KPOC is making a step in that direction. I think so.
00:13:47 JEFFREY FIDDLER
think so. And first time I ever worked with IO was at a CPX functional. Oh, really?
00:13:52 BRIAN HANCOCK
really?
00:13:52 JEFFREY FIDDLER
2022. So my brigade had CPX functional. We had a PSYOP battalion there and we had a IO battalion. Nice. I can't remember his name. I apologize for that. But the IO tenant colonel, he really put everything together. Integrator. He really was. Nice. He did it very well. And he's like, we're going to have information dominance from all the different sensors that we have out there.
00:14:17 BRIAN HANCOCK
So I've seen it work. Nice. I'm not sure we're going to have information dominance against a near -peer threat, maybe windows of superiority to execute missions. Sure. And I think that's a reality that we have to do a little mindset change as we look at large -scale combat operations against near -peer adversary. But absolutely. A good IA officer who can synchronize all of these strong personalities in different subfields towards throw in the same direction is a great asset. It is.
00:14:44 JEFFREY FIDDLER
is. You even saw that here, Brian, right? We had the former G39. To understand all those equities, to find that one person, it's not easy. No, not at all.
00:14:53 BRIAN HANCOCK
all. You worked at the Pentagon for a while, in the Joint Chiefs of Staff office, no less, including at a very excited time during the COVID -19 crisis. What was that experience like? I imagine it was probably a pretty chaotic time to be there.
00:15:09 JEFFREY FIDDLER
It was, but I'm going to circle back pre -COVID. So when I left battalion command, for all the TPU officers out there, I'd never even heard of a TPU unit that supported the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Right. A troop program unit supporting joint chiefs? I didn't hear it either. So I was just Googling around one day. I'm like, all right, where am I going to go next for battalion command? And I called down to the unit. It was one of the first units in the Army Reserve where I actually interviewed for a job. Nice. Once I got hired, I saw their interview process and it was pretty picky. I was surprised by that. Well, the list is long to get in there. So for any of those officers out there looking to get war college done or to get AOC done, or if you're a major above, because you don't want to go down there as a captain because your joint time doesn't start until you hit major. Right. I don't want to say it's a place to take a knee because it's a very busy unit, but it's not like being part of an operational brigade or battalion where you're on a phone call. four or five nights out of the month, or even more if you're in an operational CA, brigade, or battalion. We know that that's how it is. Yeah, daily, probably. Really unique place. I started out in the J35, which is part of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but it's stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. Right. And that was doing CA, PSYOP, force rotation. Somebody said, hey, we need a CA battalion.
00:16:11 BRIAN HANCOCK
daily, probably.
00:16:27 JEFFREY FIDDLER
We'd take a look and see if that's exactly what they needed. Wasn't my cup of tea. But then I went over to J7, which is the interagency lead over there, and I worked in the training section as well, which was a fabulous assignment. And then COVID kicked off, and they needed folks to work down in the basement where all the cave dwellers are. Yeah, the Morlocks from H .G. Wells. Yeah, and you know, what's funny, I mean, we're trained to do everything in the Army. Nobody ever trained us on how to be on a crisis management team. Yeah. Right. Well,
00:16:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
we, well, I mean, we've got crisis action planning and doctrine. Yeah. Right. But that doesn't, we, yeah, no, that's different.
00:17:02 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I showed up there on active duty and I was the senior ranking Lieutenant Colonel. So they said, oh, congratulations. You're in charge. You're in charge of the overnight shift. Oh God. And oh, by the way, you're going to have the SecDef's book ready in the morning, Vice President Pence's book ready and Dr. Burke's. No pressure. Right. And then all the Jaders. Right. And no, but it was great. We had a couple of civil affairs officers there, and the colonel that I was working with, he said, wow, he's like, those folks are really sharp. One of them is Hilda Fernandez. You could put her in any spot somewhere, and she's not going to look for a lot of direction. She's just going to figure it out. And this is what we talked about, right, with being aggressive and those kind of folks. Those are the kind of officers that you want in your battalion and brigade. And she was great down there, and we had a lot of good civil affairs folks down there.
00:17:47 BRIAN HANCOCK
I know it couldn't have been an easy assignment and there were tough questions that Department of Defense had to deal with. We look at all those folks, say, on an aircraft carrier in close proximity who get COVID. We get an experimental vaccine and there are perhaps some concerns about it and tough decisions have to be made to make it mandatory to do immunizations with a brand new vaccine. Were you part of that? I imagine that there were some long nights as that policy was being developed.
00:18:18 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah, I was actually down there when they were leaving. The commander, I think it was the Roosevelt. Yeah, it was difficult. We weren't part of any policy. It was really just making sure there was any GFM actions. That was one of the big things that we did. So as you can imagine, a lot of medical folks were being activated to support the hospital. There were disc commissions for CA. Yeah. Absolutely. Some of my friends went on those. Yeah. So there was a lot of that. And of course, the logistician piece, right? Getting supplies from point A to point B. So we had a little touch in that as well. You had to move some toilet paper. Did you have an opportunity to do that? Because I never could get enough in the store. Never did that. But you want to talk about influence. I had noticed in New York City, the death toll was outrageous there.
00:18:38 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah. Absolutely. Some of my
00:19:00 JEFFREY FIDDLER
And we had mortuary affairs companies out there. And you could see the amount of bodies that they're processing. And that was one of the things that we would put on the placemat. The president's placemat? It was for the vice president. I don't know who did the president's book, but I know he did the vice president's, but be brief to General Milley because he was the chairman at the time. And we could affect that in a way of saying, hey, look, this company processed this many bodies. And actually somebody went out and saw that commander on the ground saying, hey, you guys are doing a great job. It was a tough business.
00:19:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
An assignment like that sounds like. a little bit of choose your own adventure. But if you use your time wisely, you can attack some of those serious projects that require a lot of intellectual rigor, which are very challenging when you have a lot of tactical elements that you're in charge of maneuvering in time and space. It seems like in those kinds of environments, we're always just kind of putting out fires. And then when we look at some of the larger institutional questions that have to be solved as we do acquisitions and force management and some of those other things, it's kind of hard to find that headspace. to do that. But it sounds like this is an opportunity. As soon as I started the war college with,
00:20:08 JEFFREY FIDDLER
I started the war college with, I think, three months left of battalion command. Right. And then when I went to the Joint Chiefs, that's where I finished up my war college time. And it allowed me to do it. Nice. It was more reasonable than being in command. All right. Awesome. And let me just cover real quick. If anybody is interested in going down to the Joint Chiefs, if you want to become joint qualified, you need 36 points a year in a J -Doll billet. And you can accomplish that just through drills and a couple of weeks of AT. So, of course, if you have JPME -2, whether you get that through Joint Combined Warfighting School or Resident War College, then you can get your 3LEMA identifier for the health. Yeah, your ASI for joint qualified.
00:20:46 BRIAN HANCOCK
the health. Yeah, your ASI for joint qualified. Yes. It really interests me when HQDA showed the number of joint qualified generals, it was actually a very low number. It surprised me because everything we do that matters is joint combined. And many of our points of friction are when we're working in these federated environments with partners. It would seem to me that this is something that as a force, we just should be getting better at.
00:21:10 JEFFREY FIDDLER
Yeah. Well, the thing is for the COMPO3, right? It's not a requirement to become joint qualified. Totally optional. So I think we're at 5%. Yeah, very low. Joint qualification. But again, it's a good experience. Even though we don't need the joint qualification, it's a good experience to have. It's a small DOD in a way. So when I worked at the J7, Rare Admiral Foster, who I worked for in Cyprus, was one of the bosses down there as a captain. And at the J7, it was Vice Admiral Munch, who's Admiral Munch now, was my boss's boss. So we all ended up working again together on the HA mission in Cyprus and Gaza.
00:21:48 BRIAN HANCOCK
You know, that's the way things happen. Yeah. Relationships of trust. Exactly. All right. Thank you for your time, sir. Really appreciate it. And that's a wrap. Thanks, Brian.
00:21:57 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack. Stay tuned for more great episodes of 1CA Podcast.
Tuesday Sep 10, 2024
Tuesday Sep 10, 2024
Today, we welcome Cleo Paskal, Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies and a frequent lecturer for the U.S. military about the Indo-Pacific region.
Cleo came in to discuss the PRC's efforts to infiltrate Guam and the regional islands to undermine US relationships with those communities, the threat it creates to national security, and how we need to do to respond.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
--
Special thanks to Noel Flores for the sample of the Album Eat Your Greens and song Anger Management by Anita Schwab on his channel Jazz of the South Pacific. Retrieved from https://youtu.be/zfRUrnNhwfs?si=Afcsham-r5Gjnjaj
---
Transcript
00:00:04 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website, at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Cleo Pascal, investigative journalist for Freedom for Democracies and a special lecturer at the Air War College about the Pacific region. Cleo came in today to discuss the PRC's efforts to infiltrate Guam and the regional islands around it to undermine U .S. relationships with those communities, the threat it creates to national security, and how we need to respond. So let's get started.
00:01:04 CLEO PASCAL
For most Americans, the idea is that there's the West Coast. Alaska,
00:01:10 JACK GAINES
Hawaii.
00:01:11 CLEO PASCAL
Alaska, Hawaii. And then if they're being clever, they might go, oh yeah, there's Guam. But the distance between Hawaii and Guam and the location of Guam is often pretty fuzzy. So Guam is maybe two, three hour flight from Manila and maybe five or six hour flight from Honolulu. In fact, it's the other side of the dateline. So if you're going to be very geeky about it, you'll go, is that the west -western part of the U .S. or is that the most eastern part of the U .S.? Because, of course, it's the other side of the dateline. Right. And then what you really need to do is look north of Guam because Guam is the southern part of the Mariana's island chain. It's its own thing. It's its own territory. It's been... part of the United States as a territory since the Spanish -American War, so since the late 19th century, which includes the islands of Saipan and Tinian, and they are also part of the United States. This is where the United States shares a maritime boundary with Japan, and we're the site of some of the most fierce battles of World War II. We just passed the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Saipan and the Battle of Tinian. That became the busiest airport in the world in early mid -1945, where the B -29 bombers were taking off in wave after wave after wave to hit Japan. And that's where the Enola Gay took off from. And that is all the United States of America. Highly strategic, has been for a long time, right off the coast of Asia. In between Hawaii and Guam, there's a whole other stretch of islands, which is the Marshall Islands, the Federal States of Micronesia, and Palau. which are independent countries, but which have signed this completely unique document with the United States called the Compact of Free Association, which gives the U .S. exclusive defense and security rights and responsibilities in those countries. So these are independent countries, along with what is now CNMI, Commonwealth of Northern Marian Islands.
00:03:26 CLEO PASCAL
were all part of the Japanese Empire from 1914 to 1944. This is what enabled Japan to be in a position to hit Pearl Harbor and created this impenetrable chunk of the Central Pacific, which meant that U .S. forces had to go south through Guadalcanal, through the Solomon Islands, up through Bougainville, and then come up from the bottom through Tarawa to be able to start to fight its way across east to west. So that control over the Central Pacific that Japan had meant that Japan could keep the U .S. pushed towards Hawaii and isolate Guam. The Japanese hit Guam just after they hit Pearl Harbor and took Guam. So that gave them the whole stretch across the Central Pacific. And after the war ended, the U .S. Navy controlled an area that combined is about as large as the continental United States. and administered it under naval control. And there was all sorts of stuff going on. Saipan was closed to the outside for years. On the record, the Naval Technical Training Unit, I think, was the cover for it. But the CIA basically was running operations in Saipan to train a few Tibetans, but more Taiwanese that were supposed to be sent in to mainland China with disastrous results. The Marshall Islands were nuked 67 times in various nuclear tests. This was kind of an active zone for testing, training, very highly strategically important. And there was a real understanding in D .C. because you had people in Congress who had fought in the Pacific Theater, who knew people who died in these islands, who didn't want that to happen again. The U .S. strategic community knew how important control over this area was to keep the threat contained to the Asian coast. But some of that information has now been lost and the Chinese are all over the place. That assumption that the U .S. can safely get across the Central Pacific to get to its treaty allies and to get to Guam and to get to the bases in Japan and South Korea is now being questioned.
00:05:52 JACK GAINES
Is it U .S. defensive officials or is it strategy watchers in the region?
00:05:52 CLEO PASCAL
it U
00:05:57 CLEO PASCAL
Indo -PACOM is starting to get very concerned. And definitely the leadership in Guam and the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas is starting to say, we've got some serious problems here and we need help. And especially currently the governor of Commonwealth of Northern Marianas is saying, we're seeing Chinese activity that is very disconcerting. And we need help. In my mind,
00:06:21 JACK GAINES
we need help. In my mind, I see a lot of water and a few dots of islands reaching back and forth. It's hard to imagine it as a territory.
00:06:32 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah. And what you said is if you put your logistics hat on, a lot of water and a few islands, a few islands become really important. So the less land and the more water, the more important that land is.
00:06:47 JACK GAINES
Yeah. You want to talk about what? it is that's concerning them about the RC's activities?
00:06:53 CLEO PASCAL
Sure. So the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas, which the acronym is CNMI, joined the United States. But when it joined, it kept control over certain aspects of immigration and labor because its economy is so different than the rest of the U .S. Some may remember the issues it had with garment factories, for example. Early on, Chinese interests had set up garment factories there with some pretty horrific labor conditions. But because it was part of the U .S., they could put the Made in the USA label on it. From the beginning, the Chinese were eyeing CNMI's loopholes to figure out how they could use it to gain advantages in the U .S. When China was allowed to enter the World Trade Organization, the value of that disappeared. But it started to shift to earth tourism. where Chinese would come and give birth in CNMI and then they'd have little American babies. You had more recent issues, Chinese -linked casinos. One of them, a few years ago, running more money through it than the casinos in Macau. Billions of dollars. And it was almost exclusively Chinese gamblers. And the way that the money was coming out of China and... Working through corresponding banks to give these lines of credit to these gamblers made it look an enormous amount like money laundering. There was never any proper investigation done by the U .S. government. There are about 40 ,000, 50 ,000 people living in Saipan. And you've got billions in Chinese casino money flowing through the economy. So you can imagine how that distorts politics and the economics of the place.
00:08:39 JACK GAINES
Oh, absolutely. Just trying to wonder, what is it that they're laundering? Is it all the commodity trade that they're doing around the world? Is it the fentanyl?
00:08:48 CLEO PASCAL
It needs an investigation. We shouldn't be wondering. This is U .S. jurisdiction. So there's absolutely no reason that this question can't be answered. If you go to Garapan, which is the capital I've come with under the Marianas, it's the biggest town in Saipan, by far the biggest building. is this casino, which was almost finished. It had started operations, but it had a whole hotel complex on it. And they had a typical Chinese Communist Party -linked style. They had built it on a grave site, so the locals were just horrified. You know, they dug up ancestors, and there was no proper reburial or anything. Like, the whole thing was just horrific. It was very close to completion. And then one of the construction workers fell off the scaffolding and died. And it turned out that they were not there on a work visa. And this gets to this other question of the visas. So apart from these other loopholes, Chinese can get on a plane in Hong Kong and fly straight to the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas with no visa. And the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas is considered U .S.
00:09:54 JACK GAINES
the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas is considered U .S. territory. So they can take a domestic flight from there into the continental U .S.?
00:10:02 CLEO PASCAL
They're not supposed to. Supposed to stay in the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas. But there are successful prosecutions of people who have been illegally taking Chinese by boat to Guam. We talked to the mayor of Rota, which is the island closest to Guam. And one Chinese guy who got off the plane in Rota with an inflatable boat as his luggage. Yeah, there have been cases of Chinese sea people with boats on their docks and knock on the door and ask to buy the boat or to get a ride. And they did it for one of the Fish and Wildlife guys. You know, it's not hidden. But the other thing is that the woman who ran the Bureau of Motor Vehicles in the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas has been convicted of selling. driver's licenses, specifically to Chinese.
00:11:01 JACK GAINES
Oh, wow. So,
00:11:01 CLEO PASCAL
So, yeah.
00:11:03 JACK GAINES
Any idea how many she sold?
00:11:05 CLEO PASCAL
I don't know, but it wasn't one or two. This was a business. So everything I'm mentioning, there have been people prosecuted for bringing Chinese from CNMI to Guam. The Bureau of Mortar Vehicles woman was found guilty. They've also been using the U .S. Postal Service because, of course, once you're in CNMI, that's the U .S. domestic mail. So using the U .S. Postal Service for distributing drugs, over 30 members of Congress led a letter to Secretary Mayorkas. Why does this loophole persist? And that was in November last year. And they finally got an answer, which said that, well, the Chinese contributed a lot to the tourism economy of CNMI in 2008, 2009. So that was the justification. Oh, wow. The regulations that allow for them to come in say this can be suspended on national security grounds. So it's sort of inexplicable. They're now saying, well, we'll change it from no visas to some sort of electronic semi visa. But there's no reason it shouldn't be a normal visa like any Chinese national going to anywhere else in the United States.
00:12:18 JACK GAINES
What else are you finding happening due to the flow of? Chinese tourists into Guam.
00:12:24 CLEO PASCAL
We know that one of the big priorities is Taiwan. And we also know that they want to, as much as possible, win without fighting, which is a misnomer because they're fighting. They're just fighting on a different battlefield.
00:12:38 JACK GAINES
Yeah. Win without major combat.
00:12:40 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah. Win without major loss of Chinese life is probably the more accurate way. But if you're focused on Taiwan, one of your biggest challenges is Guam. You need to disable Guam or take Guam offline somehow. Make it inoperable or ineffective.
00:13:00 JACK GAINES
Sure. Because that's where all the aircraft that are going to support Taiwan defense are going to go.
00:13:05 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah. And other forms of military support and intel support and all that. And we know that Guam already had issues with Volt Typhoon cyber infiltration into critical infrastructure. And you also, ideally, you want people on the ground. To be very blunt, you can blow up the planes or you can disable them, but you can also kill the pilots.
00:13:30 JACK GAINES
But in the waiting without fighting mindset, how do you see their efforts in these islands?
00:13:36 CLEO PASCAL
If you've got the Chinese that have come in to CNMI without a visa, very hard to know who they are. There's no background check. They've just gotten on a plane and gotten off the plane. And then they've illegally come into Guam. you don't know who they are. So you have untraceable saboteurs, whatever. And the U .S. military has found Chinese nationals roaming around bases in Guam and have handed them over to the FBI, and I don't know what's happened to them after that. Guam is a problem for them. And being able to get people onto Guam without detection is an advantage. Now, two of the three countries, Palau, and Marshall Islands recognize Taiwan. If they recognize Taiwan, that gives them an added layer of defense because it means there's no Chinese embassy. And the Chinese embassies operate like these forward operating locations. You can run the influence operations and the intel operations more easily if you've got an embassy. But you're getting a huge amount of Chinese organized crime operating in those countries. which functions to corrupt the political system and destabilize it. And I think, ideally, the goal is to subvert them to the point where first they ditch Taiwan, and then maybe they also walk away from the Compact of Free Association with the U .S. And Broken Tooth, for example, who's one of the big triad leaders who's been designated by the U .S., was operating out of Palau. And in the case of the Marshall Islands, there are two Chinese nationals who bought Marshallese citizenship. and then tried to set up a country within a country.
00:15:16 JACK GAINES
Like a free trade zone or something else?
00:15:18 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah, it's kind of like a free trade plus plus, where it would have its own control over immigration and customs. They were calling it Hong Kong. Oh. Yeah. It was on Ronglap Atoll, which is... an atoll that was irradiated during the bikini tests. And they were saying, we're going to turn this into like a Hong Kong of the Marshall Islands. But basically, they wanted to get this legislation passed that would create this country within a country. And remember, the country itself recognizes Taiwan. So they wanted to create this China -friendly enclave in a country that recognizes Taiwan and that has a critical U .S. military base, Kwajalein. And it came very, very close to happening. I know firsthand that the attorney general of the Marshall Islands repeatedly asked the FBI for help in getting the information necessary to prosecute not just those two Chinese nationals, but the Marshallese citizens that were being bribed by them. And those two Chinese nationals were brought up on charges in New York because the money that they were bribing the Marshallese officials with was being run through a UN -affiliated NGO based in New York. Oh, wow. which had linkages to a whole bunch of other countries as well. And it was never brought to trial. The DOJ let them settle. And because they settled, the evidence never became public. So the Attorney General of the Marshall Islands couldn't prosecute them. They were given credit for time served. And after a very short period of time, both of them were deported, these two Chinese, back to the Marshall Islands. with no case files given to the attorney general of the Marshall Islands. So they were walking around the Marshall Islands free just before the elections. And this is a country that's crucial for U .S. defense and security. So a little bit of help on the corruption files in any of these countries. I mean, the governor of the Commonwealth of Northern Marianas has said, please investigate me. Send treasury officials. Send a resident district attorney. Go after the corruption in my territory. The Attorney General of the Marshall Islands is saying the same. The Attorney General of Palau is saying, I need lawyers. I want to go after these people. I don't have enough lawyers. So if you're talking about defense and security in the Indo -Pacific and countering the Chinese threat, it's fine to send out Coast Guard cutters. But if you send out a few lawyers and a few investigators, you're going to... really have a huge effect that could change lives for the better across the region and reinforce U .S. security. So you need a lawfare task force,
00:18:10 JACK GAINES
task force, attorneys, judges, investigators, prosecutors, law enforcement. Yeah.
00:18:18 CLEO PASCAL
The corruption is like in kinetic warfare, you do aerial bombardment before you land your forces. So the corruption is that sort of softening up of a system before you go in and take over. You weaken it and riddle that infrastructure, that democratic accountability, transparency infrastructure. You just bombard it with corruption to the point where it's ready to collapse and then you can come in and take it over. So it's a form of state capture. Proxies are fine. We didn't really talk about the middle country, the one that doesn't recognize Taiwan, but which recognizes China, the Federal States of Micronesia. The former president of that country, he wrote several letters that then became public describing what the Chinese were doing, completely bypassing his authority, backing independence movements, corrupting his officials. So he openly described it. And then as a result, Apparently, during COVID, there were some who wanted to decline entry to U .S. boats, probably not legal under the Compacts of Resociation, but they're being primed for that kind of a thing. Like in the Solomon Islands or in Vanuatu, where Coast Guard ships didn't get permission in time to come in and land. There were just these inexplicable delays. Kiribati as well. So it's already happening. Everything that we're talking about now is even further down the road in a place like Solomon's. It's worth focusing on this northern central Pacific zone because it is legally tied to the U .S. in a way that no other zone is. So it should be a priority.
00:20:00 JACK GAINES
Well, do you want to talk a little bit about the Solomons as an example of how it could end up if we don't pay attention? Sure.
00:20:07 CLEO PASCAL
If you want to understand how the PRC operates and what its goals are, it is a very useful case study because unusually we have a starting point. The Solomon Islands. recognized Taiwan until 2019. And then in 2019, it switched to China. So there's that preliminary phase. Why did the switch happen? Which is also very helpful to study. And it seems like at least part of the reason was there was a long -term subnational cultivation of Chinese actors, including leadership within the province of Guadalcanal. And so they identify potential leaders at an early stage in their career, maybe at a provincial level, and then back them and build them up. And then eventually they end up in the central government and in a position to be proxies for them to make this sort of a big move. So that's kind of the softening up phase. And you'll see that now in Palau and in the countries that still recognize Taiwan, there is that subnational cultivation going on. But once the switch happened. Then you can see what China really wants. Where does it go after? The Chinese put forward the security deal. We've seen the draft of it. It specifically says that the Chinese, with the permission of the local government, which is becoming more and more of a proxy, can send in forces to protect Chinese citizens and major projects and put down civil dissent. And we're going to do police training with you and give you security. equipment, including communications, and all that sort of stuff. So there's an attempted takeover of that security infrastructure. There was a very good investigation done by a consortium of journalists in Solomon Island that said that the prime minister had a property empire of eight houses on this tiny prime minister's salary, and they named the bank. He's using a French bank to run these mortgages. Well, there's been no investigation done. And that journalist that outlet is called In -Depth Solomon is a very good investigative journalist. And I just want to take a pause for a minute and highlight the work that is being done on the ground by honest people at very great risk.
00:22:17 CLEO PASCAL
just want to take a pause for a minute and highlight the work that is being done on the ground by honest people at very great risk. So these incredible journalists, incredible political leaders, the same thing with leaders in the Solomon Islands who... have been trying to block Huawei from setting up towers in their districts. Their jobs have been taken away. They've been prosecuted, persecuted. Their families have been gone after. Same thing with the journalists. So just to underline that there are alternatives. If somebody says, oh, they're all corrupt, that is absolutely not the case. You have many, many honest people willing to... Collaborate.
00:23:04 JACK GAINES
Up with prosecution, yeah.
00:23:06 CLEO PASCAL
That's right. And if you don't go after the corruption, those people will be suffocated. They'll become examples that the Chinese use to show people why it's not worth standing up to them.
00:23:20 JACK GAINES
Or they'll get tired of it and they'll go somewhere else. Yeah. Okay. And so that's the effect that RC influence has in the regions. Do you see it actually causing CNMI to... disassociate from the United States and actually shift over to PRC? Or collapsing Guam support to the U .S.? Because Guam was part of the U .S.
00:23:40 CLEO PASCAL
Guam was part of the U .S. since the Spanish -American War, and CNMI is only part of the U .S. since sort of the 70s or 80s, they have very different histories. If you're from CNMI, you've seen empires come and go. Your great -great -grandfather would have spoken probably Spanish. Then your great... grandfather might have spoken German. And then your grandfather probably spoke Japanese. And then your father spoke English. Those waves of colonial influence went through there. So they're very geopolitically sophisticated and can be a little bit cynical.
00:24:24 JACK GAINES
I would imagine so.
00:24:25 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah. But... That last thing, I was speaking to somebody in her 90s for the 80th anniversary of the Battle of Saipan, and she went to school under the Japanese, and she was a 10 -year -old hiding in the caves during the Battle of Saipan. You know, when Marines came to her cave and brought her and her family out, they'd been hiding in the caves for weeks. She said it wasn't the starvation, it was the thirst that really got to them. And one of the Marines gave her water from his canteen to drink. And the humanity of the interaction with just some guy from who knows where in the U .S. touched her at a really deep level. And then sort of they went through this process of I mentioned Saipan was closed. And then there was this Congress of Micronesia. And then they had this vote about whether or not to join the United States. And that was the first time in hundreds of years of colonial history that the people of CNMI were given a choice about their own future. And the word she kept using when she talked about the relationship with the United States was this gift of freedom. When the Japanese were in Saipan, the hierarchy was the Japanese were first, then came the Okinawans and Koreans, and then came the Chamorros and the Carolinians. And the relationship with the U .S. was just totally different. This is the first time that they were given a choice. And especially the older generation remembers that. So they're not going to leave the U .S., but Guam is different because there's been an anti -colonial movement in Guam for a long time. And some of it is legitimate.
00:26:17 JACK GAINES
But it's also fermented where they can.
00:26:19 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah. And so what the Chinese are very good at is taking a real problem, exacerbating it, and giving you the wrong solution. I interviewed the governor of Guam, and she said when the Japanese were beheading people in Guam, they were raping people, they were committing horrific massacres. And she said, look, given the geography of Guam, this is our reality. This is where we are. And I would prefer to be under the U .S. military than the Chinese military, basically. But that's not where the Chinese entry points are. The Chinese entry points are through this corruption and the economic things. And I think that Guam and CNMI are much more valuable to China, attached to the U .S. as a kind of catheter through which they can attach venom that goes into the system, directly into the veins of the U .S.
00:27:16 JACK GAINES
Like you were saying, mailing drugs through the post office, getting driver's licenses and probably taking flights in without having to worry about identification.
00:27:26 CLEO PASCAL
You know, we happen to have excellent, honest governors in both Guam and CNMI at the moment. But there's a lot of money arrayed against them so that they're not in place the next time around. The other component to it is... You get these windows of opportunity for investigation when you have somebody honest in power, like the current governor in Commonwealth of Northern Marianas. He says, come investigate me. There should be a rapid response corruption investigation team when they've got that little window to come in before... He gets voted out.
00:28:03 JACK GAINES
gets voted out.
00:28:05 CLEO PASCAL
Yeah, before the corrupt elements get their way to just...
00:28:09 CLEO PASCAL
Look at everything. Look at the casino. Look at, you know, the visa issue. Currently, they're trying to pressure the governor to lobby direct flights from mainland China into CNMI with people with no visas. What the governor is saying is relying on the Chinese tourism sector is not a good idea. What happened in Palau was the Chinese built up the Palau tourism sector and then pulled it all out to try to put pressure on the Palau government to make them abandon Taiwan. So what he's saying is the Chinese tourism sector comes with political leverage. And if something happens with China anyway, the U .S. government could block that tourism. So he's holding the line, but the pressure is growing. So without this rapid response corruption investigation team, you can just see all of these tentacles expanding and making it more and more difficult. for accountability, transparency, and the survival of U .S. strategic interests in a critical region of the Indo -Pacific.
00:29:18 JACK GAINES
It's interesting that tourism is ramped up just in time for the elections. Yep. Plus the gambling, the drug shipping, everything else going on with it.
00:29:27 CLEO PASCAL
Send in the lawyers. I never thought I'd get to the point in my life where it's like, oh, lawyers are the solution.
00:29:31 JACK GAINES
lawyers are the solution. Sometimes lawyers are the solution. Yep.
00:29:36 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes of 1CA Podcast.
Tuesday Sep 03, 2024
Tuesday Sep 03, 2024
Today Brian Hancock interviews Doug Stevens who is an expeditionary pastor, working faith-based diplomacy to improve international relations. The discussion is on his work travelling to partner nations to reach out to locals and leaders to overcome social trauma from war, genocide and help rebuild communities.
---
One CA is a product of the civil affairs association
and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.
We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations.
To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com
or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org
Links mentioned: Hope international ministries: Hope4nations.org
---
Special thanks to Dimitar Dodovski for sampling Keith Jarrett's album Spirits 20. Retrieved from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yeh7OX5m4E
---
Transcript
00:00:03 Introduction
Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes.
00:00:38 BRIAN HANCOCK
I'm Lieutenant Colonel Brian Hancock, and I will be your host for this session. Today we have with us Pastor Douglas Stevens to discuss religious outreach, relief operations in Ukraine, and mission opportunities in Ukraine. Doug is a graduate of both Cal Berkeley and Fuller Seminary. Doug is active with humanitarian missions in Eastern Europe. in Haiti and elsewhere. He is a people lover, culture watcher, mountain bike rider, and avid world trader. Isn't that the truth? A quick disclaimer to the audience, a reminder, all remarks are solely those of the presenters. Further, due to the subject matter of our session today, some of the content may be a little bit disturbing to some audiences. Now, Doug, I first met you in the United States. when you swooped in to rescue our church as God's quick response force. Do you remember those days? I do. I remember them fondly. It seems like a lifetime ago to me, so much has happened since, but our church is still standing, so you must have done something right.
00:01:36 DOUGLAS STEVENS
It seems
00:01:42 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, it was a great time. I have friendships from that that continue.
00:01:46 BRIAN HANCOCK
Outstanding. Some of the things that you do are similar to what we do in the Army of the United States, or at least there are some similarities to it. The way we view the American military is as an expeditionary force. We often go places with large numbers, with lots of equipment and logistics and partnerships. And oftentimes these areas we are going to are characterized by great suffering. Relief agencies may not be able to get in there to operate. So that's usually when the world often turns to the U .S. military. Now, it seems to me that you've spent much of your life in a similar capacity as an expeditionary pastor.
00:02:29 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, first of all, I just want to say what you're doing and what you represent is not well enough known as a part of the U .S. military's mission, the humanitarian side of that. And I just want to encourage you. So thank you for what you're doing. Now, my experience is on a different plane and yet heading in the same direction, just trying to help people. and have been in a variety of places around the world. In Haiti, for example, serving in Colombia, South America. I have been to Bosnia during the war back in the 90s when things were very tense. That was with World Vision. I have been to Rwanda in East Africa. That was with International Justice Mission. I have been overseas to places like Beijing, China, Cambodia, in the aftermath of their genocide. And have seen light shining in some of the darkest places in the world, places that you wouldn't expect any good news to come out of. And yet some wonderful people doing some heroic work in those places. In fact, we have just returned from more than a weekend in Ukraine. I know that you personally have a podcast that you host.
00:03:34 BRIAN HANCOCK
know that you personally have a podcast that you host. Yes. Very, very inspiring. Hello, darkness. Stories that transform. And I'll tell you, having read about... The scenario in Rwanda you mentioned, I think a number of people have watched the movie Hotel Rwanda. Yes. Very dark. You've got Hutu mothers murdering their neighbors Tutsi Chol. Yeah. You've got massive numbers fleeing. Yes. You have the radio saying there is work to be done. Kill the cockroaches. Right. You have female leaderships in the government calling the men in the camps, often stadiums, other places where, Hutu have herded the Tutsis to kill them brutally with machetes and complaining, saying, well, you need to rape these women before you kill them. And they're saying, well, we're just too tired because of all this killing. It's what they were saying at the time. And of course, the international community, we have some bases there and some other things, but we are not allowed to leave the base. There is no protection that is offered by the international community. There is no sanctuary. Clearly, this was hell on earth. It was. Have you seen some light come out of something like that?
00:04:48 DOUGLAS STEVENS
It went on for about 90 days back in 1994. That took nearly a million lives, as I understand it. We were there in the aftermath and the recovery time. And they had these wonderful trials for people who had been convicted of murder. But in these trials, you actually had the opportunity for reconciliation. You had the opportunity to extend forgiveness. potential repair of communities. And so we were close to that. We were supporting efforts as that was happening. There was a filmmaker who was there with us. So that was our time in Kigali and the countryside in Rwanda. And pleased to see the development since then. And of course, there are more complications now politically, and that's happening in our world. So that's a whole nother story.
00:05:33 BRIAN HANCOCK
I hear you. But I'm also glad to hear that some justice, some reconciliation, some path forward does exist there that you were able to see. Now, in Army Civil Affairs and United States Marine Corps Civil Affairs, both of us work with what we call united action partners. These may be local allies, they may be host nations, oftentimes the non -government organizations. We often can't work directly with them if they need to maintain a neutrality. help both sides, such as Doctors Without Borders. You are for World Vision and I believe a few others. What is it like working with a non -government organization doing this type of work? And did you ever have any interaction with the military in that role? And would you have even liked any interaction with military civil affairs?
00:06:30 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, we primarily worked with churches and NGOs that were there doing a variety of things, and those folks are the heroes on the ground, often unsung and unrewarded for what they did. But they didn't do it for that reason. They were doing it for the people they loved, the people they were sacrificing for. And we worked very closely with them and wanted to support them because they were the ones who were on the ground. We're going to be there for a long time after we left doing whatever we were doing. And often we were bringing in humanitarian aid. Sometimes we were doing leadership training. Sometimes we were doing reconciliation, conflict resolution, working with local churches that were... suddenly coming back to life again and wanting to encourage them, and the work they were doing in drawing people close to the, well, the work of God, if I can put it bluntly, because what needed to be done seemed impossible. How do you crawl out of this deep, dark hole? But it was happening, and there was a tremendous resurgence of faith in the hearts of many people who were then living it out. Hard to explain how this happened except to call it a miracle.
00:07:35 BRIAN HANCOCK
And I'm glad that miracles still do happen.
00:07:37 DOUGLAS STEVENS
They do. You have to invest in it. It doesn't happen because you're hoping for it.
00:07:42 BRIAN HANCOCK
Right. May of last year, you found yourself in Moldova. Now, that may not be a household name for many folks in America. I knew nothing about it until I went there.
00:07:51 DOUGLAS STEVENS
knew nothing about it until I went there. Next door to Ukraine.
00:07:54 BRIAN HANCOCK
We have a regionally aligned civil affairs commands who get to know some of these places. And for the European region, civil affairs command is... the 353rd Civil Affairs Command, which is back on the East Coast. And in January 2023, they actually published an excellent article in our flagship publication in the military, the Military Review. You've arrived if you get peer review publication in Military Review. And the functional specialty team, a couple of brilliant captains, published. an article regarding food resiliency in Moldova. So this is a hot topic. Can you tell the audience a bit about the mission that you were doing in Moldova, as well as what you experienced?
00:08:41 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, Moldova is a relatively poor country inside the EU, hoping to get in, not in NATO yet, hoping to enter, be approved, along with Ukraine, of course. that took in a million refugees in the last couple of years that were flooding out of Ukraine, looking to escape. The Moldovans themselves, many of them literally have their bags packed in case Ukraine is overrun by the Russian invaders. And they know that they would be next and they have no defense. And NATO is not officially obligated to intervene. So right now, for the moment, they look relatively safe, but they have absorbed an awful lot of special needs. coming in from Ukraine. Now, Moldova is also an agricultural country. They produce a lot of what they need, but they were overwhelmed by this crisis that took place. And so there is help coming in from other places. We were able to bring some of those materials in, and we were very impressed by the work of many different missions and churches working together in ways they never have before. And that's happening all across this area. People are working together like they never have. So it's a great thing to watch that happen and be part of it.
00:09:54 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's outstanding. And of course, right now, you've got a lot of Russian interference in going Moldavian elections.
00:10:00 DOUGLAS STEVENS
We've heard about that. It's still a controversy because Russia apparently is jealously looking at other parts of other countries they would like to retake as part of the Soviet venture. Now, no longer part of the Soviet experiment, which closed down in 1989, 91, somewhere in there. but want to now reestablish, according to Putin, the Holy Russian Empire. And it now has a religious overtone, backed by the Russian Orthodox Church, that basically wants to reclaim all of these lands, whether it's Poland, whether it's Georgia, whether it's Moldova, Ukraine, the Baltic states. We don't know how far this ambition goes, but we've been shocked so far, so nothing right now is going to shock me.
00:10:44 BRIAN HANCOCK
I thought we had closed the chapter on large wars in Europe. Maybe not. It sounds like Putin styles himself a bit of a czar. We know how well that worked out. It's a shame that we seem to be heading that direction. Putin's language, of course, is, hey, we want to open another front just to take Ukraine.
00:11:02 DOUGLAS STEVENS
And, of course, the war in Ukraine has been going on from at least 2014 when they took Crimea. And then the oblasts in the east, they've been occupying there. And now, of course, trying to come across. Right now, the front is essentially frozen, although I will defer to you and the military for a better estimate of what is actually happening. And we don't know where this is going. And my role, our role, is to come in and support those who are doing this good humanitarian work, especially in the faith -based areas.
00:11:30 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, I'd like to tug at that string a little bit, because you just literally, a few days ago, got back from a mission in Ukraine. And I understand that it was a multifaceted mission. You're doing a number of different things, all important works, why you're there. Now, while most of the audience is at least to some degree aware of the mental suffering that's taking place in Ukraine, can you, having some firsthand experience, tell us a little bit about what you saw, what you did, and what you found?
00:12:00 DOUGLAS STEVENS
A year ago, when I went into Ukraine, we went from Odessa all the way to Kyrgyzstan, all the way to the front lines, essentially, visiting along the way, doing leadership training, because the churches were asking for that. As people left, all kinds of new people flooded into these churches, which was a surprise to me. I didn't know about that. I wasn't expecting that. I thought maybe they'd be emptied out. But because they are serving so well, not just their own congregation, but the whole community now is looking to the church, even more than the government, which is busy fighting a war to supply those needs. And there are... Of course, other organizations that are there are Samaritan's Purse, World Vision, World Central Kitchen, various other churches in that area. And I had no idea how strong the church was in Ukraine, the evangelical, Protestant, Pentecostal, Catholic working together. Not the Orthodox so much. They tend to be a little bit more aloof. Some of them are still aligned with Russia, even though Russia is the invader. But the other churches working together and mitigating the trauma and the food insecurity and everything else that's needed and providing more than they thought they could. We were there this time primarily to pay for the cost of these Ukraine pastors and wives to come and be there for the week. And we're delighted that there was something practical they could do to really bring encouragement and some relief and renewal. And it was even more than we dreamed of doing. We just felt like a family being together. And, of course, they have to go back now to wherever they were, all within range of Russian missiles that are being sent across the country at random times. And while you were there, I mean, you were hearing the explosion.
00:13:41 BRIAN HANCOCK
were hearing the explosion.
00:13:43 DOUGLAS STEVENS
We heard a few. We saw a few happening. And, of course, the terrible destruction of the children's hospital in Kiev happened while we were there. And we were right in the middle of that for quite a while. This is the first time my wife had come in. I was reluctant to bring her there because I feel protective. But I'm married to Joan of Arc, so there was no keeping her away. And she wanted to be with the women, with the wives. And she did tremendous work there, even across some of those barriers I mentioned. Nancy is an amazing woman.
00:14:10 BRIAN HANCOCK
Indeed. She has my deepest respect, absolutely. Can you share a story or two about the brokenness that you found in Ukraine? And after you share an example of a brokenness for the community, which is... many of which are so disconnected from the reality of what's happening on the ground there. Could you share your thoughts as to what you think the proper response should be for caring individuals who are exposed to these kinds of situations?
00:14:42 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Yeah. Well, so many stories. I'm thinking of one that I'm sitting with a pastor who was in a village between Belarus and Kiev at the beginning of the war. They were marching right in, and they were going to take Kiev within a week or two or three. It was ground zero, and they were on that highway going in. They were near Buka, they were near Irpine, and they were in another village. And very quickly, of course, the soldiers took over the houses where people were living after shooting a number of people who were on the streets at the wrong time in the wrong place, just gunning them down. So these soldiers showed up, and in his particular town, in his house, actually, He had sent his family out to the hinterlands where they would be less likely to run into Russian soldiers. But he and his brothers stayed there and these Chechen soldiers.
00:15:32 BRIAN HANCOCK
soldiers. And these are very skilled fighters, by the way. These are some of the best fighters in the Russian military.
00:15:38 DOUGLAS STEVENS
And even though they had been attacked themselves by Russian forces years earlier, they were now conscripted, really had no idea where they were, what they were doing exactly. When they heard how large Kiev was, they thought Kiev was... you know, a town. Well, it's a city of five million people. They were starting to get a little nervous about how are we going to take this town? Anyway, they were part of a force that was there. They came into the house threatening with their guns drawn. They didn't know how long occupied, whether they were going to be shot, what was going to happen. But they ended up having these conversations. This is the interesting part. This is the kind of the more spiritual part. When human beings meet, and there's not only guns in the room, but also human beings who actually have to communicate with each other, eventually the guns were kind of laid down. In fact, at one point, the commander came in and saw the guns laid down, and he was furious with his own troops, because these guys, the pastor and his brother, could have picked up a gun and shot. At one point, they let him go and visit his family, and then come back, and he brought back bread that his mother had baked. And he voluntarily gave it to, I want to give it to you as a gift. And there were moments when deeper conversation happened. Like one of the Chechens was asking about religion. And you say you're a priest, but you don't have a beard. And then the pastor asked him, he said, well, what is the worst sin according to the Quran? And the Chechen thought for a moment, he said, to kill an innocent person. And so the pastor said, well, then why are you here? Because that's what you're doing. Was that an aha moment? The Chechen had no answer to that. To make a long story short, after a couple of weeks, they had a parade in front of this town. Everyone was in their kind of their dress military uniforms. And the Russian television was there. The propaganda was running. And they were on their way to Kiev. That was the whole point of this television program. The next day, they dressed down. They went back into Belarus. So they didn't do what the propaganda alleged was about to happen. And that's what happens in war. You can't predict and you can't control. And it looked like it was going to happen like it happened to us in Afghanistan, but it didn't happen like that at all. The Ukrainians stood up and they stood firm, and Zelensky and others did not flee as predicted. They stayed the course very brave.
00:17:56 BRIAN HANCOCK
Now, in the story you tell, did the Chessian Muslims, after having been confronted... Yeah,
00:18:04 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Yeah, and having been there together for two weeks.
00:18:04 BRIAN HANCOCK
having been there together for two weeks. Been there two weeks.
00:18:07 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Yeah.
00:18:08 BRIAN HANCOCK
And being confronted with the reality of their action. Yes. Dead bodies in the street, right? There were dead bodies in the streets.
00:18:15 DOUGLAS STEVENS
were dead bodies in the
00:18:15 BRIAN HANCOCK
in the streets. Right.
00:18:16 DOUGLAS STEVENS
There were terrible things happening, lots of fear. Did they make any attempt at reconciliation before they marched away?
00:18:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
they make any attempt at reconciliation before they marched away?
00:18:23 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, the pastor was, in his own words, reaching out to them, offered to pray for them. And before the Chechens left, there were at least a couple of them who apologized for being there. Wow. We're sorry. This was wrong. We did not know what we were doing. Wow. And that's what they were saying as they left. So a ray of light into the sea of darkness, into this very dark place. Obviously, the danger continues. There are bad actors everywhere, especially back in Moscow. And so the war goes on, and we don't know where it's going.
00:18:39 SPEAKER_00
what they
00:18:47 SPEAKER_00
are bad
00:18:55 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Your second question, which was, okay, now what do we do regardless of if the war continues for years, if it ends tomorrow? Everybody in Ukraine knows that if the war ended tomorrow, there would still be trauma to heal from. There would still be recovery and rebuilding to the tune of, what, half a trillion dollars? At least. Something like that. And climbing. Nobody knows, and where's the money coming from? So a lot is uncertain, which is what happens as a war continues. Yeah.
00:19:15 BRIAN HANCOCK
climbing.
00:19:23 DOUGLAS STEVENS
But the efforts that the Ukrainians are making to survive, first of all, and secondly, to take care of one another. deserves all the help that we can provide. And it can be governmental, it can be NGOs, it could be nonprofits, it can be churches, it could be individuals who have people of good faith and goodwill. And obviously you want to give through a trusted source, through a channel that you know is going or almost all of it going directly to the need. And the organization that I was working with this time, which is called Hope International Ministries, all the money we raised, 100 % of it, went directly to them because we covered our own costs and expenses. So there was no overhead. Become the answer to your own prayer.
00:20:08 BRIAN HANCOCK
Absolutely. You know, Muhammad Gandhi said, be the truth you want to see in the world, right? Yeah. Lead by that example. I really love that story that you shared and why it was a little bit frightening with that pastor having the home invasion. Reflecting on that, you and I both know that Muslims don't always get the best press out there for different reasons, right? And here in your story, what we have as an example, the Russian Orthodox Christians are not operating on a moral compass. But the Muslims in the same situation stop and reflect. Appealing to their conscience. They received that, whereas many of the Russian Orthodox Christians did not. And then they act on that. Yeah.
00:20:56 DOUGLAS STEVENS
We pray for the Russian people, too, because they are only hearing one story. It is pure propaganda. They believe Nazis have taken over. They believe their homeland is being threatened. They're believing things that aren't true, but they have no independent way of discerning.
00:21:11 BRIAN HANCOCK
They're getting a little bit of independent information we found from YouTube, but the Russian government is working very hard to try and figure out how to close that down. Right,
00:21:19 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Right,
00:21:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
right. Put up the wall.
00:21:20 DOUGLAS STEVENS
up the wall. When you're hearing from 99 channels,
00:21:21 BRIAN HANCOCK
you're hearing from 99 channels, one thing and then you've got just this one little outlier voice, right? That can easily be lost. So certainly the Russians does not have access to a reasonable volume of objective information.
00:21:37 DOUGLAS STEVENS
And as you watch... The reports that come out of the Ukraine war, I mean, literally every day, if you're watching, there are certain reports that come out. And we know that nearly 600 ,000 Russian troops are casualties of this war. 600 ,000. Now, maybe 200 ,000 have been killed, and the rest have been wounded,
00:21:50 SPEAKER_00
,000. Now,
00:21:54 DOUGLAS STEVENS
the rest have been wounded, grievously wounded, can't return to war.
00:21:59 BRIAN HANCOCK
That's not even including the PTSD and all the other things that happen, right?
00:22:03 DOUGLAS STEVENS
And you wonder if those families back home in Russia are raising questions they did about Afghanistan when Russia invaded Afghanistan. And ultimately, Russia quit because they couldn't take it. So here we are yet again. And nobody expected this, but we all should have seen it coming, I suppose, because Putin has dropped signals all over the place. Right. In Syria, in Georgia, where else he's been. But I'm more interested, again, in the humanitarian part and what we can do. I'd like to end the whole thing. I don't know how long we can keep doing this, but we're going to keep doing that as long as we can, just as you and the work that you folks do. You don't hear as much about that as I would like to hear, because what you're doing is critical. I know you're doing it in Gaza as well, trying to help the Palestinians and try to set it up, but it's almost impossible to do that. And of course, you're risking your life.
00:22:52 BRIAN HANCOCK
Yeah, one of my colleagues just got back from the Gaza mission. I'm hoping to get him on the show. But that is one of the beauty of civil affairs and the things that we get to do to help. strengthen nations.
00:23:03 DOUGLAS STEVENS
These are the taxes I want to pay. I really want you to get it all.
00:23:07 BRIAN HANCOCK
I wish you were in charge. I wish I was. You raised the elephant in the room. You mentioned Vladimir Putin. A lot of people say this is Vladimir Putin's war for his legacy, whatever the reason may be. But one of the casus bellies or justifications that Russia is using for what amounts to outright invasion and perpetrating mass murder is the fact that they see this as protection of Christianity. as defined by the Russian Orthodox Church. Can you just give a real quick rundown of the history of that? And what are your thoughts as to whether Vladimir Putin's actions are aligned with Christian principles?
00:23:46 SPEAKER_00
of that?
00:23:54 DOUGLAS STEVENS
My answer is no, not at all aligned in any form by any distortion of what the Bible is teaching or even what the facts portray. So the story is that... First of all, Ukraine's already part of Russia. He claims it as our own, the larger mother Russia, even though, of course, they've been independent. And Ukraine has a deep history. And they are brothers. Slavic brothers. They're Slavic brothers. And that's why this makes us even more sad that Cain and Abel, you know, Cain's going after Abel. And he has a pretext. You know, he has resentment. Right. And supposedly the Nazis in the form of a Jewish president. That's unlikely, by the way. has taken over and is now an existential threat to Russia somehow. Ukraine is threatening Russia and NATO's behind that. Ukraine is Western and therefore part of Western corruption. And of course, there is corruption in Western culture. There's no doubt about that, as there is corruption in Russia, for heaven's sake, with the oligarchs and so on. So there's hypocrisy all over the world. Does that justify naked aggression? I don't think it does. at all. This is a terrible injustice, and injustice is treated harshly by God. And there's no justification that I can imagine, and being with the Ukrainian people just solidifies what was already obvious to me.
00:25:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
Now, when in history does the Russian Orthodox Church split from the Church of Europe? Because they don't see the Church in Europe as legitimate. Well,
00:25:31 DOUGLAS STEVENS
the Eastern Orthodox Church. which would include Russian, Ukrainian, Greek, and others split from the Holy Roman Church, the Roman Catholic Church, back in the Middle Ages. So that split took place then. Now there are splits within the Orthodox Church. And the recent split, many of the Ukrainian Orthodox, which was subject to Moscow, they have now broken away because of what this war does. Let me ask you this question.
00:25:59 BRIAN HANCOCK
me ask you this question. It's a difficult question. A number of the Ukrainians are claiming that Putin's war in Ukraine, because of the way it's being perpetrated, the indiscriminate shelling, the nature of the targeting, etc., effectively amounts to attempted genocide against the Ukrainian people. Yeah,
00:26:20 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Yeah, that argument can be made.
00:26:23 BRIAN HANCOCK
It can be. But when we look to the Old Testament, you know, as Christians, You know, we see how God orders the Israelites to attack Canaan and completely wipe out the Canaanites and take their land for their exclusive use, which seems to me very much to be the strategy Vladimir Putin is executing. How is Putin's war against Ukraine different than the word of God to the Israel people? Or is it different?
00:26:54 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Yeah. Well, thanks for playing devil's advocate here. That was great. Very eloquent. And I want to punch you out right now, even bringing that up. I was in Bosnia in 1995, and I sat down with an imam there in a village that had been destroyed, where everybody had turned against one another. The Croats and the Bosnians and the Serbians had turned against one another in a village where they had once coexisted. I said, how in the world is this village ever going to recover? He said, well, forgiveness. And I went, okay, I'm not expecting to hear that from a Muslim. I didn't know that was a theme in the Quran. I said, tell me, what does the Quran teach? He said, well, there are two theories. The first theory is that forgiveness can be extended once you have drained the last drop of blood from the last living relative of your last living. enemy that doesn't bode well it said it chilled down my spine when i heard that i said you said there was a second theory yeah what's this other what's the other option he said well you take the hate out of your heart you give it to god who is the judge the only righteous judge and you ask him for the strength to turn your enemy into a friend and i was thrilled to hear that and i said that is in the quran he said well and he smiled we stole it from the prophet isa jesus
00:27:01 SPEAKER_01
even bringing that
00:28:11 DOUGLAS STEVENS
who teaches this forgiveness, which is an otherworldly kind of ethic. There's nothing in this world that ordinarily leads to that. And the people of Ukraine, many of them are believers in this Christ, in the Christ of the New Testament. And they're even practicing that, and they pray for the Russians, as furious as they are about what is happening to them, as hard as they are fighting, they know that the answer ultimately is, Probably not going to be solved by a war in itself because it just keeps going. And the bodies keep mounting up. And the children are afraid. And the women are being abused. And that isn't ultimately the answer. So we pray for that miracle. We really do. We want to be peacemakers. We want to see reconciliation happen. And we want to see evil stopped, for sure. We want to see it stopped in its tracks.
00:29:05 BRIAN HANCOCK
Well said. Now, I want to thank you. Doug, for taking the time here to share the civil affairs community. We also have a heart for service. I know you do. And thank you for what you're doing.
00:29:13 DOUGLAS STEVENS
know you do. And thank you for what you're doing.
00:29:15 BRIAN HANCOCK
doing. Yeah, absolutely. We're allies in this.
00:29:18 DOUGLAS STEVENS
allies in
00:29:19 BRIAN HANCOCK
I think we are. For those in the audience who want to get additional information on some of the relief efforts that you've been part of and that are happening in Ukraine, where would you recommend they look?
00:29:33 DOUGLAS STEVENS
Well, I want to, first of all, recommend, if you're thinking about Ukraine, there is this wonderful ministry that I've been a part of. It's called Hope International Ministries. And you can go to Hope4Nations .org. Hope4Nation. Hope4Nations .org. Okay. World Vision, Samaritan's Purse, World Central Kitchen. Those are the people I trust and love, and I'm sure there are many others who are doing good work. I appreciate your recommendations.
00:30:05 BRIAN HANCOCK
appreciate your recommendations. I know a number of us donate to those organizations, but we're never doing enough. We don't necessarily understand what some of these difficulties are like. Do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share with the audience before we wrap up the session? I have so many,
00:30:21 DOUGLAS STEVENS
have so many, but the first thing I think of is we need to lead from a baseline of gratitude. for all that we have. This adventure that we're on, if it's a time to give and not just a time to take, a time to care about others, not just a time to elevate yourself, this adventure is the thrill of a lifetime. To live grace -based and joy -driven is my motto. I hear it.
00:30:49 BRIAN HANCOCK
hear it. And thank you too for the amazing work that you've been doing all your life. And of course, recently around the world. It does matter. It does make a difference. Anyone who says that they alone can't make a difference, that is not true. Many people around the world make a difference. You are one of them. And I can tell you if there are more people like you in the world, Pastor Stevens, this would be a better world to live in. So thank you very much for what you did and for your time here with us today. And thank you so much.
00:31:18 DOUGLAS STEVENS
thank you so much.
00:31:21 Close
Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward U .S. relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack, your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes. One CA Podcast.