190: Pavlo Kukhta on Ukraine Reconstruction

Today, we welcome Pavlo Kukhta, Ukrainian Economist and Special Advisor on Reconstruction. Additionally, Mariah Yager from SMA joined me as cohost of the conversation. 

We brought in Pavlo to discuss the current state of conflict reconstruction, the strategy for post-conflict reconstruction, and how to overcome challenges like balancing government oversight with designing a system that removes major corruption while managing Ukraine's transition into the EU. 

I set up this interview because I know that many diplomats, aid workers, and servicemembers are focused on helping Ukraine now and after the conflict.

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One CA is a product of the civil affairs association 

and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on the ground with a partner nation's people and leadership.

We aim to inspire anyone interested in working in the "last three feet" of U.S. foreign relations. 

To contact the show, email us at CApodcasting@gmail.com 

or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www civilaffairsassoc.org

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Pavlo's info: https://ua.linkedin.com/in/pavlo-kukhta-93190091 

SMA version of the interview: https://nsiteam.com/smaspeakerseries_20june2024/ 

Special Thanks to Jamming Edward for the music sample. Retrieved from: https://youtu.be/lRboIm0tlqE?si=be0Mai-k4EsIQr3h

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Transcript

00:00:07    Inroduction

Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. This is your host, Jack Gaines. 1CA is a product of the Civil Affairs Association and brings in people who are current or former military, diplomats, development officers, and field agents to discuss their experiences on ground with the partner nation's people and leadership. Our goal is to inspire anyone interested in working the last three feet of foreign relations. To contact the show, email us at capodcasting at gmail dot com. or look us up on the Civil Affairs Association website at www .civilaffairsassos .org. I'll have those in the show notes. Today we welcome Pavlo Kufta, Ukrainian economist and special advisor on reconstruction, and Mariah Yeager from SMA to co -host the conversation.

 

00:00:52    JACK GAINES

We brought in Pavlo to discuss the current state of conflict reconstruction and the strategy for post -conflict reconstruction, as well as how to overcome the challenges of balancing government oversight with designing a system that removes major corruption while managing Ukraine's transition into the EU. I set up this interview because I know there are a lot of diplomats, aid workers, and service members focused on helping Ukraine now and after the conflict. So let's get started. I think it's critical that people are looking forward to the future of Ukraine, the vision of where it's going and how it could be. And your work has been seminal in going around the international community, talking to leaders, talking to people about how important it is to support Ukraine in its current fight, but also to look at the future and how Ukraine can be a partner in the international community and how they can help support making that happen.

 

00:01:48    PAVLO KUFTA

Oh, and by the way, I have to give a warning to you guys. If I drop out suddenly, this means there is a blackout. Because periodically electricity goes out, unfortunately, these days in Ukraine. So I will be back with you in a minute or two. I just simply need to shift to my mobile. Actually, that's kind of my main job these days. I'm working with a whole bunch of companies, mostly European, mostly from Central Europe, on getting them into the reconstruction effort. Right now, a lot of it is focused on energy. We spend about a third of our time here without electricity. I mean, I have a generator in my house. I'm also installing battery systems now. With all that, I should be going more or less independently. Most of Ukrainians actually live in multi -apartment buildings. Millions of families suffer from that, and into the winter it will be even tougher. And here I actually have to thank the American public for their help, because it's actually USAID spearheading the provision of gas generation. the small steel power plant running a natural gas to Ukraine for the winter to actually make it through. Because the blackouts will be with us for a year or two now, but one thing is to periodically have electricity, another is freeze to death in the winter. We really need that equipment here that aid is quite appreciated. It's life -saving.

 

00:03:17    JACK GAINES

Now, you're private industry, but you're also the senior advisor to the Minister of Finance on... Ukraine Reconstruction, right?

 

00:03:25    PAVLO KUFTA

Reconstruction. We're actually now out. You've heard about the old team.

 

00:03:30    JACK GAINES

Yeah, Mr. Mustafa, right? Mustafa is the head of the agency, and Mr. Alexander Kubrick,

 

00:03:36    PAVLO KUFTA

who was an advisor, he was the deputy prime minister for Reconstruction. Now the team for the Reconstruction is not in limbo, but it's hanging up in the air. We don't know who will be appointed, how will the system work now?

 

00:03:51    JACK GAINES

Well, like most cabinets in war, people rotate in and out because of stress, because of politics, family, everything else. Well, there's politics in every country, right? Yeah. Because as a private citizen working in a private industry, you're able to continue focusing even as the reshuffles occur.

 

00:04:09    PAVLO KUFTA

I've been working on that simply as a voice in Ukraine, respected and heard as one of the top economists in the nation, as someone who has close relationships to literally everyone in the government. These are my former colleagues for many years. Some of them I've known for more than a decade we've worked together. So I'm working with everyone, and reconstruction has been my priority since a short stunt at the front lines.

 

00:04:57    JACK GAINES

We all have skills that we have to go forward with. Right, but your work in economics is much larger.

 

00:05:04    PAVLO KUFTA

The magnitude is totally different. So since then, I've been engaged mostly in the efforts for reconstruction of Ukraine. I've produced some internal reports to the government and how to help construction so that it is most conducive to private sector. Because my firm opinion is that the key to get Western multinationals,

 

00:05:27    PAVLO KUFTA

because that is the type of economic agent. or let's say stakeholders that we lack in Ukraine. I mean, there are many multinationals here. They're working here, they're present in the market, but compared to the more successful economies of Eastern Europe who are in the EU, the share of international companies, multinationals present there is much larger. And consequently, the structure of the economy is much different, much less resource -based. more complex, more production -oriented, more knowledge -based. So that is what we want to do, right? We will not be rebuilding this old Soviet industry that has been destroyed by the war. It's useless. Just to illustrate, so these blackouts, why are they happening? Because the Russians have done a concentrated, unfortunately quite successful, assault and sprained on Ukrainian energy system. But what they have destroyed, they have destroyed all power. That's the bulk of the assets that they have wiped out. They've also damaged heavily old hydroelectric dams, but the main problem comes from these full power plants. These were old Soviet assets, essentially in our conditions in Europe destined for being thrown out. We're switching to gas. Europe is switching to green renewables. That's what happened to them anyway. So what the Russians have done is in a very destructive and catastrophic fashion, but they've... If destruction, that would have happened anyway. Because the coal power plants are out. We're not going to lose. But the question is what to build instead. Because depending on the success on that endeavor, that is actually, you know, the definition of victory here for me. Because victory is not just getting Russians out or getting to some stable peace. Victory is throwing them out, drawing the iron curtain behind them. and then rebuilding Ukraine in a way that would clearly make it as successful as its EU natives. Because that way, we will firmly get this territory and this nation into the West, integrate them in such a way where it will become fixed. In the same way as Poland has become fixed as part of the Western alliance, in the same way as Slovakia has become fixed as part of the Western alliance. Even Hungary, with all these political issues around it, political conflicts. still is firmly fixed in NATO, EU, Western political structures, and ultimately it's not about anywhere. And that is actually the goal, which I believe it's not just about restoring justice, it's not just about stopping bloody war, it's also about finally closing that tissue between the two worlds, between the West and the authoritarian Asia that Russia essentially represents. Because if Ukraine is no more in some kind of gray zone where we don't know what it is, the two sides can fight for it. Or at least Russia can pretend it's fighting the West over Ukraine, right? While the West was not really fighting and then had to come in to help Ukraine. So we close that picture. Once that picture is closed, once it's clear to everybody where the border between the two civilization and the border should run on the eastern border of Ukraine.

 

00:08:38    JACK GAINES

Okay. Have you been working with Parliament on building up better foreign investment laws to protect companies coming in with the government of Ukraine as well as going out into the international community and recruiting foreign investment?

 

00:08:54    PAVLO KUFTA

Actually, that's kind of what my career was mostly about. It's not about fighting groups or some kind of social justice. It's about an old Soviet corrupt model of the economy where essentially, Whoever is in power, whoever has begun, exploits everyone else, extracts resources from them. Versus the modern, liberal, normal market economy, where people earn money meritocratically, right? Whose ideas is better, who work more devoted wins, resources. And that's how it worked. And that's at the core of this question of Ukraine. Because you hear a lot of talks about Ukrainian corruption. Mostly these go nowhere. either descriptions of some corrupt officials, but this doesn't really tell you the nature of what we're dealing with. And we're dealing with this old legacy, because that is how the Soviet system essentially comes. You had the party and their apparatus, kind of keeping everyone else enslaved and then exploiting them. That's international, that's what Soviet Union was. Since that system did not really collapse, rather there was a kind of gradual transition. The former communists declared themselves now to be nationalists and pretended they are pro -independent Ukraine. Well, really, they are the former party bosses. Unlike to the West, unlike in Poland, where the system crashed and the new people came and the old guys were kicked out, and Ukraine did not happen. And that's why Ukraine went on this different path, much less successful. Because then no really quick and sharp reforms were possible. Well, there was a lot of shock here, but there was no therapy. because there were no real market reform. Instead, there was this mishmash of gradual introduction of market mechanisms into the Soviet system, which allowed to generate future profits, which created dollar guards, which created all kinds of injustices, instead of a normal market economy where you compete in whoever is better with. So that legacy is the problem, and that's what we're trying to get rid. And it's a fight right now. These days, it's a fight. I believe to win it, what we need is a proper... integration into the eu so it's kind of a carrot stick where the country has to change its system in exchange for money but not just giveaways for it to grow just hand something into the budget and you know they pay pensions with it no what we're talking about is an exchange okay you change your environment we give you structural funds to build up infrastructure to attract investment So the reforms create a better environment for the actors which we bring in to then change our economy, kick out the oligarchs. And then in a proper market time, really corruption, it doesn't disappear, right? Then you need a strong state, good institutions to fight it.

 

00:11:44    MARIAH YEAGER

Thank you. What is the scope for greater political decentralization as a route to limiting corruption?

 

00:11:52    PAVLO KUFTA

So decentralization has been ongoing in Ukraine. It's been a tool used pretty heavily over Europe. So all European countries were pretty centralized, unlike the U .S. Federal nations, all European countries used to be very centralized at some point. Then they realized that it's very inefficient. And they've started descent. It makes the system more efficient because it introduces competition on the level of local authorities. The decision -making is much closer to people, so it's much more effective and more efficient. It's simply a better system. It's not necessarily a tool for fighting. Because what happens is corruption from the center and it moves to the big cities or towns, local buildings. Not necessarily better. I mean, the examples are everywhere, including the states. We all know, like, towns captured by corrupt officials who then start rigging local election systems. perpetuating themselves in power, even in very developed countries. So these things can happen in any of this environment. So no, decentralization, I would say it's just simply a necessary reform for a modern way of life, because our modern societies are way too complex to be governed for one capital city. And that's why, you know, when people start talking about using some kind of strategist model, free construction of Ukraine, right? Let the state control everything and it will run everything. They don't know what they're talking about because that is exactly the way to create new oligarchy, new corruption, and to fail miserably. We need to keep it as a free market competition, as many Western companies and businesses as we can get, as much Western funding, Western investment as we can get. Let the West build the Ukraine. Let Western businessmen rebuild it. Throw out the local corruption. We don't need the auditors or the guys who are up this nation blind to participate in reconstruction. Throw them out. Vodka.

 

00:13:47    JACK GAINES

Pablo, just a couple of things, though. With the U .S., we've had a couple of experiences with reconstruction. And what we found is that overly accessible market has also caused corruption because the government was then peddling access in order to give people the freedom to sell. My favorite, of course, is China bribing Iraq, and they flooded the Iraqi markets to where local Iraqi industries dissolved. And that's my concern is that a totally free entrance into the Ukraine reconstruction field by commercial entities with minor to low government oversight will allow foreign governments and industries to flood the Ukrainian market, wiping out. Ukraine's own production and replacing it with European ones, which might be good for Europe integration, but it also, you lose your production skills. And that's one of the great things about Ukraine is it has industry, it has agriculture, it has production. And I would hate to see that collapse under BMWs or Toyota.

 

00:14:56    PAVLO KUFTA

You are lucky because Ukraine and all the guards did that job. They played that game for 30 years, so they were being really protectionist. So they've captured all these old Soviet industries that we were talking about, and essentially they've run them into the ground. And now Russians finally wiped them out. So car production is the prime example. Ukraine actually had its own car production from Soviet times, and then it was modernized together with Dell. There were some attempts to get Korean investment in it. Ukraine really protected that car production.

 

00:15:26    PAVLO KUFTA

protected that car production. So in negotiations with the European Union of the integration with the EU on the creation of free trade zone. Ukraine wasted most of its effort on imposing protective tariffs for cars, for automobiles, while losing positions on agriculture. So we played the European game on agriculture, allowed them to impose some quiet protectionist barriers against us for us to keep this card. Guess what? For more than a decade, Ukraine produces zero cars. Protectionism does not win. It's a relatively small market. It's not China.

 

00:16:03    MARIAH YEAGER

So a question. Could you talk a little bit more about how to fight corruption? What are we going to do different this time? Is it a different mindset? Is it some different procedures? What's coming together that's underlying a way to keep corruption down?

 

00:16:17    PAVLO KUFTA

Essentially, when we're saying corruption, we are doing ourselves a bit of a disservice because it's such a nonspecific term. We say corrupt officials in D .C. Austin Trope on American TV. Not necessarily meaning that they actually steal money or do something illegal. Meaning that they are not really fighting for public interest, but more there for their personal gain. Then we're saying some corrupt dictator, someone who has all the power and really exploits the nation. Then we're saying corruption in Germany is someone to provide for some tender. And then we're saying corruption in Ukraine. And these are all different phenomena. One is a bezel, right? Another is just simply a bad part. Black -class leaders. Another is just dictatorship in a poor nation. And another is this strange thing we have here, where there was no legacy as of this Bolshevik regime. In very simple terms, it was a slave economy. That's what Soviet Union was. That was built up in the 1920s, 1930s. Or a small bunch of party officials, essentially all the nation. There was no checks and balances. No oversight of their activities, no freedom of speech, no nothing, right? A bunch of guys, whoever was in charge of them, whoever gave the order, could do literally anything everywhere. Stalin was the person who owned Soviet Union until he died. And then the system perpetuated itself. So Stalin died. It became more dissentery. It was not one person, but a bunch of persons. In essence, the system continued. A bunch of communist officials who no one ever elected. essentially chose each other, owned everything, and everyone else was their slave within a certain level. And then this system suddenly collapsed without these officials going anywhere. So simply, it stopped working at all, because at some point, its inefficiencies were so large that it simply stopped functioning, and the Soviet Union just dissolved it. But then these independent nations, including Ukraine, essentially ended up former slaves and these former masters, suddenly thrown into the realm of democratic politics, essentially try to reproduce the Soviet system with a market. I mean, in practice, it looks like corruption. They privatize all industries into their hands, or they capture public tenders and steal money. But at the root of it, it's not corruption. These people aren't really serving the people, and then they're somehow avoiding their responsibilities. It's not about that. They are in the game to capture power. They come on TV, they screw lies, win elections, and then they just install their people over the place to control the state. But the whole point of the game for them is to use it to fill their pockets and to keep themselves empowered. And that is the essence of Ukrainian corruption. And why Ukraine has been able to keep fighting it is by repeatedly violent, at the end, democratic reactions. So the last revolution 10 years ago in 2015 was violent. People had to use force to throw out the corrupt, wannabe dictator. And that is why the Russians attacked. Because essentially, in Russia, that system won. And then they had right near them in Asia, quite close, linguistically close, watched on by their people, which really showed to them an example how to destroy that. Ultimately, that is the reason for the war. Because essentially, it's a fight between these two systems. So when we're speaking about corruption in Ukraine, we're speaking and breaking it. We're speaking about breaking the ability of someone to capture power and then embezzle it. The best way to do it is by building up a market economy, the commanding acts of which would be run by large national corporations, which would essentially be invincible to influence by these acts. Even if a populist politician manages to fly his way into the ruling, but if the system is functioning, This politician can do nothing. So for that, the first step is the economy. Rebuilding the economy, multinational corporations, EU integration, EU funds, multinational value -added chains, multinational business models. You can't do anything. Nothing to capture, right? All value is created as part of a larger international global system. And then the second step is building up these institutions. The institutions, the justice system. Essentially, it's all about it. It's about law enforcement and the justice system that are strong enough and have integrity to keep everyone in check. So even if someone wins elections, it's popular, you can go to jail if it doesn't. And then this is essentially the state that the Western societies are in. Develop market economies with good, strong justice sectors.

 

00:21:07    JACK GAINES

So are you recommending an economic council to oversee reconstruction?

 

00:21:12    PAVLO KUFTA

It's a collaborative effort. What we're strong at, we will not lose. What we are weak at, we should lose. We don't need it. So reconstruction is actually two parallel efforts. And we mix them up together. That is the rebuilding of the infrastructure in housing. That's thing number one. That's what actually the reconstruction agency was created for. A whole host of digital systems were created for. A very large participation by Western donors is there. invariably it will be funded by public money, but it essentially will be and should be run in tight cooperation with USAID, with agencies like that, under their tendering procedures. I mean, it's not an ideal system, and we've seen from Iraq, for example, it can fail sometimes, but it's better than just handing it over to the Ukrainian government, not even because of corruption. It's just too damn large a project.

 

00:22:08    JACK GAINES

Are you comfortable with the planning that's already in place for post -conflict reconstruction?

 

00:22:15    PAVLO KUFTA

I think Mustafa was doing a good job, what he was doing at the agency, right? This was a bit slow because he was trying to set it up institutionally and make it right. I think it's the correct approach, even though some people were complaining like, oh, we're not rebuilding fast enough. I think generally the trend is right. I'm pretty sure it will not be an easy task, but I'm also pretty sure it's doable. A large measure of Western control is preferable because it keeps the nefarious sectors out and where I believe it will be a collaborative effort, primarily in terms of government. There might be attempts to capture these financial flows for illicit gains. But that's just one thing. The other thing, and to me more important, is... Structural rebuilding of the economy, institutional rebuilding, which is entirely not about building bridges or roads. It is about changing the players and changing the sectors. And that is all about private sector. That is all about getting private investors and getting Western companies and getting these business practices. Changing these old oligarchs who essentially ran into the ground. And luckily, we have this window to detail because they are essentially out by their own mismanagement primarily, but also done by the Russian invasion, which really destroyed many. So these old industries are up there. The new ones have not yet been free. To create them, we need these corporations. And that is at least no less important than this public reveal, or maybe even more. That is also the key to solving this corrupt Ukraine issue.

 

00:23:55    MARIAH YEAGER

All right. Thank you. I have a couple questions about energy that I want to ask. Are there large -scale efforts to decentralize the power grid, solar, wind, geothermal, and to become more resilient to attack? What do you see in there?

 

00:24:09    PAVLO KUFTA

Yes, there are. And actually, they all plan to get through this wind. That's actually where these small -scale power stations, because they're also decentralized, and they also produce both heating and electricity. You can put like 10 of them around. much less vulnerable to Russian strides. In the times there is more supply, there is more production, there is demand. Batteries help to even that out. So the large -scale batteries for you, there is a big plan. I firmly believe in private sector providers. Heavily, I'm involved with several such projects. So that will be life -saving. There is also a sort of parallel plan by parts of the government to build up nuclear power. I'm skeptical of that because I don't see how that helps in the short run. And in the long run, I don't see why we need more. It will be too much. These people also have their own arguments. So there is, to some extent, a competition. But they don't really contradict each other. I believe mainly, though, in the decentralization. Some European nations, like Portugal, produces 70 % of its electricity. They've even taken a look at building nuclear power plants and they said like... We don't need it. There is no sense. It's very convenient. It's very clean. Green allows them to really protect the environment. The nature is good. The air is good. People migrate there. People move there. It's relatively cheap, right? Once you've invested so much into it, it's cheap for them. Sometimes they have negative prices. The renewables are definitely the way to go. And of course, given the green transition, given the fact that European Union has provided structural funds specifically for this kind of green rebuilding, it's only natural that Ukraine will be rebuilding based on renewables. But natural gas will be playing a role still. And it's funny, it will be American. Recently, there was a first sale of American LNG to Ukraine. So Ukraine possesses the largest gas storage facilities in Europe. It's very conveniently situated, essentially, in the middle of Central Europe. So you pipe gas there and then use them to sell off consumers around Europe. And that was the Russian business model, right? They were selling gas to Ukraine. Now that is cut. There is some transit still, but it will be over. It clearly will not be buying Russian gas, nor will it be transiting. But then the U .S. has come back. U .S., it offloads LNG in Greece, in the south. And then there are all two pipelines going from there to the north. The LNG gas is transmitted by pipelines into these gas storages in Ukraine, and that's sold over Europe and in Ukraine as well. The first 2 billion cubic meters of gas have been secured for Ukraine. So US LNG will be the gas for Europe.

 

00:26:57    MARIAH YEAGER

Right, thank you. As you're rebuilding the energy infrastructure, do you have to focus more on long -term solutions, or is it really survivability in a constant?

 

00:27:07    PAVLO KUFTA

It's essentially the same thing. So right now, quicker solutions need to be installed, which is these gas generation systems, batteries, stuff that can be installed quickly before winter. Actually, they complement each other with, let's say, solar photovoltaics, because photovoltaics generate energy when the sun is up. You don't control that. If you have battery storages, you store that energy. So it's all building up the same system in this renewable -based decentralized energies. That's its modular. It's much less centralized. We don't need one big one person. You may go by with much less regulation. The energy sector is over -regulated in the renewable, right? Because the regulations that were needed to run a few nuclear power plants, big coal power plants are necessary to run mostly. So you get into a much more exciting environment. And then different sectors can build it up. As long as the markets work, there are price signals. So what's your point? The energy. Here are five. Right.

 

00:28:14    MARIAH YEAGER

So giving your views on the importance of inward foreign direct investment, what is your view on near and midterm access to the Black Sea?

 

00:28:22    PAVLO KUFTA

Ukraine has preserved its main force. The Russian Black Sea fleet has been eventually driven out to the western part of the Black Sea. They lost a third of their ships and they can't really operate anywhere near Ukraine. Ukrainian ports are now open, despite the fact that the Russians did everything they did. They were simply beaten. So I don't see the Russians realistically capturing the main access to sea.

 

00:28:49    MARIAH YEAGER

All right, thank you. What are your thoughts on the regional partnership opportunities for reconstruction?

 

00:28:56    PAVLO KUFTA

It's essentially EU, other Eastern European nations, and Germany at its core in Europe. Just the same way as... countries like Poland or Slovakia. It's kind of German -driven. The U .S. will open a very large role. It's not just about the economy, it's about the security. We clearly understand that it's going to be over by a century in our separate Russia. But it's important that Ukraine is protected by some kind of security arrangement that makes it unviable for Russia to reverberate. The whole problem there is the grace of the whole fighting. that's been going on in the region in the last day is because it was not Russian anymore, not wanting to be Russian, not going to be Russian, but not Western security protected at the same time. It kind of raised my plateau. But it has to be all by one civilization or another. The Russians will try to build some kind of market -based Soviet Union, which I'm pretty sure will end quite miserably. But at least the competition will not be this military clash. The U .S. has to play a role. But economically, I think it will be more Europe. Of course, I mean, at least this LNG deal by Venture Global, this U .S. corporation that did the sale, already shows what it will be, right? So then the new gas corridor will be partly running from the U .S. The U .S. will replace Russia and the European gas market, which is a huge shift. Just mind -boggling, actually, because for 70 years, it was like a centennial strategy for them. They've inherited it from the Soviet Union, and now they've lost it in three years. Two Americans.

 

00:30:39    JACK GAINES

Hey, this is Jack. I get what you're saying about the transition away from government control to a commercial sector to rid yourself of political corruption. On the other side of that spectrum, of course, is... Economic corruption where you have a monopoly or an oligopoly that's running the country because government doesn't have strong enough institutions to give structure or allow local companies to grow because these large companies are basically just pulling them up by their roots. Do you see Ukraine building the type of judiciary and monitoring and reach back to be able to stop that type of action in creating an economy?

 

00:31:23    PAVLO KUFTA

Well, look, I mean, that was the model Ukraine operated on. And that is the model of Russia. It's a monopoly that captures it. And they did not capture it because the state was weak or they somehow built up a business and created a monopoly. It happens just in an entirely different way. They simply capture the state. What they do is they get money. They use this money to win an election. Then they get their people in power. They put them in positions of power in the judiciary system. And then the judiciary system works for them. That's the model. I mean, the states in this post -communist part of the world, they are quite strong. I mean, this is not, I don't know, some Latin American country or some African country where there was no indigenous state machine, where a foreign corporation can come in, create a monopoly, capture the nation. Nothing of that sort. This is a place where it's called KGB origin. It's the state that captures the monopoly. Whoever controls the state controls the nation. And that is the problem. Because that's where the monopoly is. The monopoly does not come from captured markets. Sure, they create market monopolies, but they exist as long as they control a part of the state. The moment you lose control of the state, your monopoly is gone. It's disassembled at a moment for someone else to take it over. That's how it works in Eastern Europe, because of this communist legacy. So that is what we should be afraid of, and that is why we need many multinational corporations working here. in partnership with local actors, that is the way to avoid this kind of situation because then the state will not be strong enough to capture that company and to take it away and to take it, you know, pick up. All right.

 

00:33:03    MARIAH YEAGER

Well, I have one question just to maybe wrap things up. So at the end of the day, what are your top two to three recommendations as to what the U .S. and maybe other allies could do to support Ukraine right now in terms of economic construction?

 

00:33:17    PAVLO KUFTA

With the U .S. Get a stable piece by providing support, such heavy pressure in Russia, to get them to ceasefire, and then to provide Ukraine with credible security guarantees. That is the number one thing that can actually be done.

 

00:33:34    MARIAH YEAGER

All right, thank you. Jack, did you have any final questions?

 

00:33:37    JACK GAINES

No, I just appreciate that you finally got you on here and that you were available. I appreciate this. Thank you. Pablo, please, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.

 

Close

Thanks for listening. If you get a chance, please like and subscribe and rate the show on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you're interested in coming on the show or hosting an episode, email us at capodcasting at gmail .com. I'll have the email and CA Association website in the show notes. And now, most importantly, to those currently out in the field, working with a partner nation's people or leadership to forward US relations, thank you all for what you're doing. This is Jack. your host. Stay tuned for more great episodes, 1CA Podcast.